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David Ober

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Now I'm hearing from a friend that played there that he heard it was pH problem.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 02:45:35 PM by David Ober »

David_Tepper

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2013, 01:20:07 PM »
David -

Nematodes are the curse of greens in Northern California. It is a little surprising they made it so far inland. Usually they stick to the courses along the coast. They love the cool, damp climate and they love poa.

DT  

P.S. Congrats on a very strong showing! Well played!

http://www.amateurgolf.com/tournamentview.asp?id=6837&view=results
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 01:22:51 PM by David_Tepper »

David Ober

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2013, 01:23:04 PM »
David -

Nematodes are the curse of greens in Northern California. It is a little surprising they made it so far inland. Usually they stick to the courses along the coast. They love the cool, damp climate and they love poa.

DT 

Yeah, we had them at my old home course, Canyon Crest. Those greens were 100% poa. The greens at Stevinson, though, are still mostly bent from what I could tell. Very strange.

David Bartman

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2013, 08:15:58 PM »
Those little buggers forced both Lake Merced and Olympic Club to replace their greens with bent from Poa.  Been a few years and by all accounts both are doing just fine with the bent grass and nematode free. 
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

David_Tepper

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2013, 08:20:04 PM »
"Those little buggers forced both Lake Merced and Olympic Club to replace their greens with bent from Poa.  Been a few years and by all accounts both are doing just fine with the bent grass and nematode free."

David B. -

It is not just those two clubs that have replaced their poa greens with bent grass. A number of other SF Bay Area courses have done so as well. The question is, "how long can these courses keep the poa (and the nematodes) out of their bent grass greens?"

Time will tell.

DT

Bill_McBride

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2013, 09:34:05 PM »
Nematodes attacked our Tifdwarf greens in Pensacola last year.  Thought they were eradicated but back on four greens this spring.  They are tough. 

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 12:44:17 AM »
Would like to get more information on this.  I have not heard of nematode issues with a course in an inland location like SR.  Even the poa greens in the Bay Area but East of SF have not had it (knock on wood).
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 04:02:10 AM »
Just out of interest, is it just on the greens or is the poa in the aprons and fairway also effected?

Jon

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 09:43:00 AM »
Anytime your name appears ahead of Randy's you have played well ;D

You know if George and his super crew at Stevenson are having problems it really must be a problem, as he runs a really well informed establishment.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 09:54:15 AM by Michael Wharton-Palmer »

David Ober

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 12:19:46 PM »
Anytime your name appears ahead of Randy's you have played well ;D

You know if George and his super crew at Stevenson are having problems it really must be a problem, as he runs a really well informed establishment.

Thanks, Michael. My round on Sunday was one that I'm proud of. I've spent the last two years coming back from three successive surgeries that I had in 2008 and 2009. This last Sunday was the first time I've felt truly comfortable on a golf course in tournament conditions since 2008. I actually executed some shots down the stretch on a tough golf course when I knew I was in contention.

And you're right: Beating Mr. Haag is always an accomplishment.

Patrick Kiser

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 12:50:35 PM »
If the greens were constantly watered and soft ... regardless of inland or not in the Bay Area ... wouldn't there be a strong chance for nematode to set in?  With the poa flying around and wet conditions, it just seems that perhaps it could happen.

I don't know how much truth there is to this, but I heard or read somewhere at some point how it can come down to the water and piping being the route cause from nematode creeping in.

I'm wondering if the pros here have any more knowledge in regards to the source areas.
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

David_Tepper

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« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 01:19:14 PM by David_Tepper »

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2013, 01:45:28 PM »
"Those little buggers forced both Lake Merced and Olympic Club to replace their greens with bent from Poa.  Been a few years and by all accounts both are doing just fine with the bent grass and nematode free."

David B. -

It is not just those two clubs that have replaced their poa greens with bent grass. A number of other SF Bay Area courses have done so as well. The question is, "how long can these courses keep the poa (and the nematodes) out of their bent grass greens?"

Time will tell.

DT

Poa Solution is coming

Methiozolin

http://www.thepaginator.com/Uploadfile/45/882/swf/882-25.swf

http://lb2.ec2.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/intheloopgolf/thruthegreen_20110910/index.php?startid=12

This article indicates that Olympic, Merced, Cypress Point, SF Club, California Club, are all in testing this new chemical that is supposed to be a game changer for Poa.  So much will depend on the EPA and then getting approval from California EPA. 

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/registration/mee/2013-8mee.pdf

You think I want Bentgrass greens at my club here in SoCal?  LOL
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2013, 02:59:21 PM »
David, were the rough and wind both up?  Those scores seem high for that crowd with no one under par.  We played the Kings Putter there, in 2006 I think, and a ball ten yards wide of the fairway was usually lost.  Tough to score in those conditions on bad greens.....

David Ober

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 03:39:21 PM »
David, were the rough and wind both up?  Those scores seem high for that crowd with no one under par.  We played the Kings Putter there, in 2006 I think, and a ball ten yards wide of the fairway was usually lost.  Tough to score in those conditions on bad greens.....

The greens were ... horrendous. Very tough to get it going with the putter. 6.5ish and bumpy.

The wind was up the first round, so that made it tough. We played it at about 7100 yards. Wasn't as windy for day two, so the scores were lower.

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 04:22:30 PM »
I'm very surprised at this but not shocked.  As you may know, George Kelly owns both Stevinson Ranch and Greenway golf.  Greenway is a turf management company among other things.  They have been going around the country and signing up some high profile courses to help them manage their courses and poa from taking over bent greens.

Nematodes can only live in poa so I'm surprised that their greens are actually poa?

Here is some information from www.greenwaygolf.com

Course design and the use of the proper grass species have a great deal to do with the quality of the putting surfaces. Fast and firm putting surfaces place a much higher degree of importance on accuracy and shot making. Obviously shot making to the low side of the pin is highly desirable as it leaves uphill putts. To achieve this a player is challenged to position his shots in such a way as to be able to approach the hole from the proper position.

Fast, firm and smooth greens also require “touch”… Which align with tournament skills and ultimately compliment the course design, but most importantly it helps to identify a worthy champion. There was a lot of controversy about the recent US Open green conditions at Pebble Beach, as bumpiness made for extremely difficult conditions to putt on especially with excessive green speeds. Firm and smooth putting surfaces are essential for the ball to role on line and into the hole. This should always be the goal of the Superintendent for greens management.

Firm greens are also more desirable from an agronomic perspective. Soft greens are typically more susceptible to disease since they have a much higher thatch accumulation and also usually have a much higher water and fertilizer requirement due to having shallower root systems.

Greenway Golf’s management philosophy is to design maintenance programs that insure firm, smooth and uniform putting surfaces. Our desire is to promote climatically suited turf grasses such as bent grass that provides the best and most economically desirable putting surfaces. Of course this is dependent on having a climate suited to managing bent grass.

In a region that is conducive to growing bent grass it is a far superior putting surface to poa annua. Bent grass requires less water, fertilizer, and chemicals to maintain a superior quality than that of poa annua. As a result, bent grass is far superior from an environmental perspective as it significantly lowers the risk of players from the various pesticides that are required to maintain a good poa annua green. We are not implying that bent grass does not require some amount of pesticide applications, however it is considerably less.

Players of all levels need to understand that a firm, smooth and uniform putting surface is going to be required for the game of golf to be sustainable. Firm and smooth greens are the basic foundation of this great game and a management protocol that produces these conditions while spending less money and using less water should be viewed as desirable to the long-term success of the game.


David Ober

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 05:04:53 PM »
From my recollection, their greens have always had little to no poa in them. 100% bent from what I could tell. Could see no traces of poa in the greens last weekend, either....

Patrick Kiser

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 05:52:01 PM »
You think I want Bentgrass greens at my club here in SoCal?  LOL

Some of the best poa I've seen anywhere was at SDCC.  It seems poa can do really well in San Diego.   ;D
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 06:02:50 PM »
I just got uin touch with George Kelley and will post his response when I hear from him.
This is very interesting and to have another expert response will be a treat.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 06:28:41 PM »
Joel, I don't know where the "only in poa" comment comes from, but the nematodes literally ate up several of our nice Tifdwarf greens last year. 

David Bartman

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch....
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2013, 07:38:27 PM »
You think I want Bentgrass greens at my club here in SoCal?  LOL

Some of the best poa I've seen anywhere was at SDCC.  It seems poa can do really well in San Diego.   ;D

SDCC manages their poa very well, they keep it fast and firm, but its still poa, get a lot of morning play and then play in the afternoon and you wont be too fond of even their poa greens.  
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 07:59:12 PM »

Nematodes can only live in poa so I'm surprised that their greens are actually poa?


Not sure where that thinking comes from. Nematodes attack any healthy rooting turf. We have some spots in our Celebration fairways, have seen some on our tifeagle and also on bentgrass in Texas. Nematodes do not know a specific grass, they just know healthy roots.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Bill_McBride

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 08:30:46 PM »

Nematodes can only live in poa so I'm surprised that their greens are actually poa?


Not sure where that thinking comes from. Nematodes attack any healthy rooting turf. We have some spots in our Celebration fairways, have seen some on our tifeagle and also on bentgrass in Texas. Nematodes do not know a specific grass, they just know healthy roots.

....which they then proceed to devour.   :'(

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2013, 01:09:07 PM »

Nematodes can only live in poa so I'm surprised that their greens are actually poa?


Not sure where that thinking comes from. Nematodes attack any healthy rooting turf. We have some spots in our Celebration fairways, have seen some on our tifeagle and also on bentgrass in Texas. Nematodes do not know a specific grass, they just know healthy roots.

Not sure what I was thinking on this.  Obviously my bad.  Do they not attack fescue?

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Greens at Stevinson Ranch -- Nematodes?
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2013, 02:27:19 PM »
Joel, there are thousands of species of nematode.  The "problem" variety for poa greens around the Northern Calif coastal area is the Anguina pacificae. It favors poa.  Bent is a less favored habitat for it, hence the changes at Olympic, SF Club, Presidio, etc etc.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson