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Michael Whitaker

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I will soon be visiting Walmer & Kingsdown near Dover, so I took a look at their website. Get a gander at this green on the 16th... ever seen anything like this? If you miss left I wonder if you can bank one off the wall on the right side of the green?  ;D

Anyone played W&K?

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Brent Hutto

Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2013, 12:51:41 PM »
Mike, if you catch that hole downwind it's missing long you will have to worry about. And when conditions are keen you'll want to be landing the ball well to the right back in the fairway well short of the "wall" coming into play.

Or at least all that's true if I'm remembering the correct hole...

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2013, 01:06:09 PM »
Reminds me of #3 at Painswick.

Jonathan Davison

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2013, 01:11:22 PM »


Here is one at a James Braid course, Cockermouth GC in Cumbria.

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2013, 04:51:11 PM »
Hi Michael,

so back in Blighty soon eh :) These type of features are to be found on many courses designed and built from the late 1800's through to the golden age. It makes for some interesting shots. Next time you are back in the Highlands then a visit to Strathpeffer would reveal some similar examples as would a trip to Grantown on Spey which has some of the best examples of glaringly obvious man-made modelling that somehow fits the landscape that I have ever seen.

Cheers,

Jon

Bill_McBride

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2013, 04:53:33 PM »
I will soon be visiting Walmer & Kingsdown near Dover, so I took a look at their website. Get a gander at this green on the 16th... ever seen anything like this? If you miss left I wonder if you can bank one off the wall on the right side of the green?  ;D

Anyone played W&K?



It's so natural looking!   ;D

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2013, 12:52:47 AM »


Here is one at a James Braid course, Cockermouth GC in Cumbria.

Interesting! W&K is also a Braid course!!! A template?  ;)
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2013, 12:58:17 AM »
Hi Michael,

so back in Blighty soon eh :) These type of features are to be found on many courses designed and built from the late 1800's through to the golden age. It makes for some interesting shots. Next time you are back in the Highlands then a visit to Strathpeffer would reveal some similar examples as would a trip to Grantown on Spey which has some of the best examples of glaringly obvious man-made modelling that somehow fits the landscape that I have ever seen.

Cheers,

Jon

Hi, Jon. My wife's business "drags" me over to the UK two or three times per year. I'll be back in July and maybe again in October.

Are any of the highland courses you reference Braid designs?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 03:48:45 AM »
Both are Braid's designs

Jon

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 04:10:36 AM »
You see that sort of thing quite frequently on older, lower key UK courses, although the W&K example is perhaps more rigorously geometric than most others. When I think of the courses I grew up playing in West Yorkshire, there were several greens of this kind, or on a similar pattern but banked into a downslope with the drop at the front of the green. It's the simplest - though not the most aesthetically pleasing! - way of constructing a playable green on a slope that would otherwise be too severe.

At my father's club, Meltham, outside Huddersfield, there was a green like this on the 14th hole. Cut at the front, creating a two foot vertical drop from the approach to the green surface, and use the material to build up the back. About twenty years ago, the green was remodelled to make it fit better and look more natural - a lot of material was removed at the front to create a softer slope down onto the putting surface. It's more aesthetically pleasing now, but I'm not sure it plays any better - the soil is terrible and the run-up shot (useful as it's the stroke index one hole) still doesn't really work as the ground is generally too soft. Be careful what you wish for, I guess!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 04:47:40 AM »
Whitty

You aren't paying attention.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend & Alnmouth

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2013, 05:14:19 AM »
Like Adam, I grew up in West Yorkshire and greens of this type are standard fare in the Pennines.

On my old home course, Ryburn, the 3rd, 5th and 8th greens were of this template.  That's how I thought greens were as a kid.

Stonehaven's 17th, near Aberdeen is perhaps the most severe of this type that I know.
2024: Royal St. David's; Mill Ride; Milford; Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2013, 08:51:49 AM »
Whitty

You aren't paying attention.


Ciao

I've never been to Cleeve Hill! Anyway, from this photo I would not have immediately compared the two greens. But, I see they are brothers. The W&K green is SOOOO geometrical!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Ross Tuddenham

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2013, 09:13:53 AM »
The first on Braid Hills in Edinburgh, and quite a few of the other holes where the green is on the side of a hill.  I don't think this feature is uncommon in the UK.



Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 10:54:10 AM »
No photgraohs, but I believe Coyswold Hills/Coombe Hill has several greens like this.
I saw alot of this growing up also playing around Yorkshire and the Peneines in General, one side of the green resembles Langford and the other built up to kick balls onto the green, great feature that is indeed found on alot of courses built in this time era.
Great feature for long par thees I always think, gives the player a side to sort of bail to.

Terry Lavin

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 11:17:48 AM »
This sort of green configuration might be a very interesting fantasy for 14 at Bandon Trails, as if more tweaking would occur.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 02:27:10 PM »
This one at Richmond CC in California. 


Brad Tufts

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2013, 10:27:09 AM »
Hey Mike,

Have you ever seen this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Britains-100-Extraordinary-Golf-Holes/dp/1904328121

It's a great and fun book, and you spend enough time in the UK to seek out some of these unique holes and off-the-beaten-path golf courses!

There were only a few holes in the book with which I was familiar, as it avoids the famous courses...a couple Painswick holes are featured.

-Brad
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2013, 11:15:16 AM »
This one at Richmond CC in California. 



Joel,

Does this green/hole still exist? If yes, what does it look like today?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2013, 11:26:57 AM »
Hey Mike,

Have you ever seen this book?

http://www.amazon.com/Britains-100-Extraordinary-Golf-Holes/dp/1904328121

It's a great and fun book, and you spend enough time in the UK to seek out some of these unique holes and off-the-beaten-path golf courses!

There were only a few holes in the book with which I was familiar, as it avoids the famous courses...a couple Painswick holes are featured.

-Brad

What a great find! I will definitely have to get this book!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2013, 12:00:30 PM »
This one at Richmond CC in California. 



Joel,

Does this green/hole still exist? If yes, what does it look like today?

It does not and I question if this photo is mis-marked.  The photo seems to pre-date the opening of the course. The only hole this could fit in is the 6th and I doubt it was there.  Regardless it's an extreme example of the square green. 

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2013, 12:34:55 PM »
Angular design seems to be a common factor of many chalk downland courses of southern England. I'm particularly minded of Worthing, another course well worth getting to know: http://www.worthinggolf.co.uk/about_our_club/courses/lower_course/


Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2013, 12:40:18 PM »
Hole number 12 perhaps at Royal Eastbourne mark?
That longish par three with the slope on the left hand side and drop off to the right...also on numbers2/3 same course.

I knew that I had seen that somewhere, then it came to me.
I played Royal lots during Uni..


David_Tepper

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Re: Have you ever seen a green like this one at Walmer & Kingsdown?
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2013, 12:58:27 PM »
Joel S. (and Mike W.) -

Regarding the picture of green at Richmond CC shown above, could it possibly be the uphill par-3 third hole?

While not as remotely geometric, the green on the par-3 sixth hole at Royal Dornoch is similar in that it is built into the side of a slope, with a steep falloff on one side.

DT

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