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Trey Kemp

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2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« on: April 07, 2013, 10:57:48 AM »
For those of you who like rankings, here is the latest from the Dallas Morning News on Texas Golf.

twitter.com/TreyKempGCA

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2013, 11:14:56 AM »
That pic of the 9th green at Colonial is at least 5 years old
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Howard Riefs

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2013, 11:46:42 AM »
How unfortunate. I thought this was a list of top BBQ places in Texas.
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Steve Lang

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2013, 08:04:37 PM »
 8) you mean BBQ in dallas area?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Mac Plumart

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 08:08:33 PM »
Played today with someone who said Wolf Point was the best course he'd ever played.

 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bart Bradley

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2013, 08:19:20 PM »
Played today with someone who said Wolf Point was the best course he'd ever played.

 

You played with Mike Nuzzo today?   ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

It looks great!

Bart

Mac Plumart

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2013, 08:24:16 PM »
Played today with someone who said Wolf Point was the best course he'd ever played.

 

You played with Mike Nuzzo today?   ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

It looks great!

Bart

 ;D
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jackson C

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2013, 09:31:21 PM »
So did Wolf Point not get the 15 ballot minimum to qualify for the list?
"The secrets that golf reveals to the game's best are secrets those players must discover for themselves."
Christy O'Connor, Sr. (1998)

Don_Mahaffey

Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2013, 11:03:45 PM »
So did Wolf Point not get the 15 ballot minimum to qualify for the list?
If it ever gets 15 ballots, there will be 15 less people invited back.

Sam Morrow

Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2013, 01:02:09 AM »
This list is crap. Obvious bias towards the high end clubs. Very little thinking outside the box and a bias towards the big names in Texas.

mike_beene

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2013, 02:08:12 AM »
Sam, give specifics.Maybe 5 that shouldn't be in the general vicinity on the high side and 5 on the low side.The stand out to me is Vaquero which has consistently been highly rated.These are obviously subjective but I don't get that one doing s well.Also,I have never understood the high praise Colonial,a flat river bottoms course gets.Interested in your thoughts.

Sam Morrow

Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2013, 02:19:49 AM »
Sam, give specifics.Maybe 5 that shouldn't be in the general vicinity on the high side and 5 on the low side.The stand out to me is Vaquero which has consistently been highly rated.These are obviously subjective but I don't get that one doing s well.Also,I have never understood the high praise Colonial,a flat river bottoms course gets.Interested in your thoughts.

I like Colonial more than most but I agree, being ranked that high seems like a lifetime achievement award. Same with Preston Trail. I'm very curious to hear from people who try to say that Austin Golf Club could be ranked that far down. I also think it's a shame that the public courses are so far down, I guess people don't want to venture to Frankston to see Pine Dunes. I also believe that nobody who really knows anything about golf course architecture could ever rank the abortion that is Royal Oaks (the Houston one) 35th in Texas. Obviously people are getting seduced by a fancy clubhouse. This is the kind of list that I'd expect from the Chronicle, not The Morning News.

Congrats to you guys at Lakewood, never heard yall mentioned as barely sneaking into the top 50 in Texas. :D

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2013, 08:58:07 AM »
As one on the panel, I am surprised to see some of the high rankings that some courses appear to always get.
Colonial deserves its place to me, but I admit to loving the course, good old school architecture maximising a less than ideal piece of land.
Pine Dunes is way way underated and as mentioned someof the high end facilities continue to get high marks as much for prestige and history as much as anything else.
Brook Hollow should be higher in my opinion and several of the high end new courses are somewhat inflated in there respective positions.

Steve Lang

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2013, 02:03:03 PM »
How about the Redstone member Course Rated above their Tournament course.. ouch!

p.s. though i mentioned this as my preference in the last Houston SHO thread...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

George Freeman

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2013, 04:30:23 PM »
I don't mean this as a jab - I'm truly curious:  From an outsider looking in, why does Texas appear to have so little great golf given the circumstances?

Please take this with a grain of salt as I know next to nothing about Texas golf, have never played a round of golf in Texas, and have only visited the state once when I was 12 years old.  And my statement above mentioning "great golf" would be geared towards courses that are generally thought of as good/great by the members of this site.

The link below is for GCA.com's unofficial ranking and includes over 300 courses world-wide.  I'm sure I missed one or two, but by my count there were only two courses on the list from Texas (Colonial @ 185 & Dallas National @ 136).  With Texas being such a massive state, a lot of which I would imagine to be better than "average" golf land, why haven't there been many/any great courses built?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/ian8389/GCA/Raw_All.jpg

Again, please don’t take this as “Texas bashing” - I have nothing against the Lone Star State.  This topic has always intrigued me.

NOTE: the obvious disclaimer needs to be made about Wolf Point.  While I have not played the course, it definitely appears to be VERY highly thought of in this circle.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 04:33:53 PM by George Freeman »
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Greg Tallman

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2013, 04:42:12 PM »
Good to see JWL listed for his work at Boot Ranch

Craig Van Egmond

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2013, 04:43:35 PM »
George,

   You are not the first to ask this question, nor will you be the last.  Same story goes for Florida.  Lack of good soil?  

    
  

Bill_McBride

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2013, 04:51:36 PM »
I really dislike the Fazio Foothills course at Barton Creek.  The Fazio Canyons course is much better to me.  My favorite there is the Crenshaw Cliffside course with its fall-away greens, one of the most fun courses I play fairly regularly.

Except for that tree on 13.  (This for Sam's benefit.  He hates that tree!)

mike_beene

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2013, 05:40:24 PM »
I like both Whispering Pines and Pine Dunnes and not sure which one I like more. I assume fewer people have seen Pine Dunes. We are shutting down on a few months for a course redo and I intend to make several trips to Frankston. I was glad to see the Honors Club or whatever it is called get some recognition.It is still Columbian to me, but that is as good of a use of a piece of property that I have ever seen.I could rotate between Brook Hollow,Honors, Pine Dunes and my place and be very content as long as I took August off. The real story in Texas is that while there are a few good newer places, the old courses are being restored and preserved in a very top notch way which includes cleaning up some prior bad decisions.Plus 419 fairways and the combo of better bent or the newer Bermudas have made the conditioning much better in this transition type climate. Now if on Thursday, the one year anniversary of AT&T u verse going out for the Masters,AT&T would worry more about their service than some river bottom golf project.

David Ober

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2013, 05:43:56 PM »
I've played Champions, Vaquero, and Carlton Woods Fazio.

Best locker room/bar: Champions

Best Showers: Vaquero

Best Golf Course: Carlton Woods Fazio

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2013, 07:04:19 PM »
Mike B
What is your place?
I agree 100% with Pine Dunes excellent course..once the grass has come out lets get a group to meet there one day.

mike_beene

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2013, 07:08:53 PM »
Lakewood

mike_beene

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2013, 07:11:35 PM »
Would love to get a Pine Dunes meet up. Agree let's wait until it is in shape.

Sam Morrow

Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2013, 08:40:52 PM »
You guys let me know about Pine Dunes, I'd like to make that trip. I don't know what McBride is talking about with my not liking that tree at the Crenshaw course. :-X

George,

 I think your question is legit, it comes up a couple of times a year. There is lots of good golf in Texas but not much great golf. I also don't think there's as much great golf in America as people want us to believe. I'm not going to rip on particular courses but some of the courses on both coasts and Chicagoland seem to get more love than they deserve while I think there are golf courses in Texas that if you transported them to a coast would be considered great.

The way I look at it is that just because it's old and Ted Ray played there doesn't make it great.

Steve Lang

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Re: 2013 Dallas Morning News - Top 100 in Texas
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2013, 09:28:32 PM »
 8)  why not better golf in TX???   could be the clayey gumbo borne of glacier runoff, because the glaciers didn't get this far south to the 30th parallel and grind everything up , like up north along the 40th parallel and above..


from http://www.epa.gov/gmpo/edresources/pleistocene.html

The leading edge of the glaciers was an ice cliff, sometimes hundreds of feet high, and cold dry winds swept down from the glaciers. As the glaciers slowly spread south, they pushed the climatic zones  farther south. Just south of the glaciers was a zone of tundra, next was a zone of shrub tundra, then scrub birch forests, then boreal forests, and finally mixed deciduous forests. Approximately 18,000 years ago, when the Wisconsin stage glaciers were at their maximum southern extent, the Gulf Coast climate was colder and drier. The mean annual rainfall in southern Louisiana was possibly as much as 40 inches less than it is today. Boreal forest , similar to those now found in Canada and the northern U.S., extended as far south as northern Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama. The north central Gulf Coast was probably covered by sparse forests of northern pine, similar to portions of southern Wisconsin or New England. Oak and hickory forests, similar to those now found in Kentucky or Missouri, probably covered the river bottoms. Florida was drier and its mean annual temperature may have been as much as 10 F colder. It was covered with sparse, scrubby vegetation, sand dunes, and steppe-like open grasslands. There were some scattered pines and broadleaf trees. Central Texas was probably covered by tall grass prairie,   with pine and aspen growing in the river bottoms. The high plains of west Texas were most likely covered by short grass prairie  and semidesert. These prairies were probably similar to those of the present day Canadian Provinces of Saskatchewan and eastern Alberta.

or maybe some don't like the heat.. frankly, especially Scotsmen
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 07:56:37 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"