[Jason Topp]

I did find the carry distances interesting because they vary so greatly - 300 yards down to 250 for an average number.  Furyk is quite successful despite his longest measured carry being 264.  My impression is that the thing holding him back is not length but his ability to perform under pressure, particularly putt.

I disagree with those that lump Tiger into the bomb and gouge category. I doubt anyone else hits fewer drivers than him.

[Brent Hutto]

I really didn't mean to start the same old discussion about players or equipment getting longer and longer.

What I find interesting about the comment is that there is a CONSISTENT distance they are setting up tee shots to pass or fail ... punishing the shorter hitters and giving a free pass to the long boys.  And, I don't think that distance was inherent in the original design of all the courses in question, they are baking it into the set-up by adding new tees and moving bunkers to a certain distance.

Bunkers should be at ALL distances.  Adding ten yards to the carry distance on your tee shot should enable you to carry one or two more bunkers, NOT ALL OF THEM.

At some point it does start to seem like the usual Tour course design and setup is tending toward a bit of a pass/fail scenario.  From your description it's like numerous fairway bunkers or even the odd water hazard are converging toward a carry distance somewhere around the median driver carry distance for current Tour players.

To the extent that becomes widespread it forms a barrier to entry (or least to success) on the Tour. Either find enough power, equipment and technique to be in the (current) top half of the Tour player driving distance distribution or you'll find yourself at a cumulative disadvantage adding up over several tee shots per round.

One can imagine a generation hence, the canonical Tour course rubric being tweaked to make those carries 315 yard or whatever the median carry distance among then-current Tour players might be. It could be an interative process of culling out the bottom half of the herd in each generation. Like some sort of weird pseudo-scientific eugenics experiment designed to create a Tour entirely of Supermen. Then one day the entire professional game can just be a long-drive contest combined with a putting tiebreaker.

[Paul Gray]

Tom et al,

The vast majority on this site appreciate the different skill sets needed on traditional courses. You, and many others for that matter, build courses in keeping with these skill sets. The PGA, and many here if we're not careful, seem intent on conceding that length, length and more length is the answer. Is there any possibility, or if this just the naive thinking of a golfer on the other side of the pond, that 'second golden age' courses might become more desiring of tour events, thus shifting the emphasis away from carry and back onto the running game?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom et al,

The vast majority on this site appreciate the different skill sets needed on traditional courses. You, and many others for that matter, build courses in keeping with these skill sets. The PGA, and many here if we're not careful, seem intent on conceding that length, length and more length is the answer. Is there any possibility, or if this just the naive thinking of a golfer on the other side of the pond, that 'second golden age' courses might become more desiring of tour events, thus shifting the emphasis away from carry and back onto the running game?

Paul,

There's little chance of that if they don't do something about the equipment.  None of our clients are interested in building an extra 800 yards onto their course so they can be considered to host a Tour event.  And there's not too much running game in play when guys are hitting wedges to most of the greens.

At the end of the day, the Tour plays where the sponsors want them to play ... and the players still choose whether they want to show up that week.  If you don't have millions to spend on hosting an event, you're not going to host one.

[BCrosby]

If a material number of Tour players and good ams are telling us that only hazards at 290 yds give them pause, we have a problem.

Another way to see the magnitude of the problem: 230 yds driving distance (circa 1925) is to 6500 yds as 290 yds driving distance (circa 2012) is to 8200 yds.

Bob  

[Terry Lavin]

The members at Olympia Fields are reportedly considering whether to redo its North course in an avowed effort to land a PGA championship. A major focus of the work will surely involve moving the bunkers since the pros had little difficulty with carrying them ten years ago.

[Paul Gray]

Tom et al,

The vast majority on this site appreciate the different skill sets needed on traditional courses. You, and many others for that matter, build courses in keeping with these skill sets. The PGA, and many here if we're not careful, seem intent on conceding that length, length and more length is the answer. Is there any possibility, or if this just the naive thinking of a golfer on the other side of the pond, that 'second golden age' courses might become more desiring of tour events, thus shifting the emphasis away from carry and back onto the running game?

Paul,

There's little chance of that if they don't do something about the equipment.  None of our clients are interested in building an extra 800 yards onto their course so they can be considered to host a Tour event.  And there's not too much running game in play when guys are hitting wedges to most of the greens.

At the end of the day, the Tour plays where the sponsors want them to play ... and the players still choose whether they want to show up that week.  If you don't have millions to spend on hosting an event, you're not going to host one.

Tom,

Thanks for your response.

Sadly, you rather confirmed what I was already thinking.

I had hoped places like Sand Hills and Steamsong might be in with a shout but with 7,500 yards now looking short and reluctance from the powers that be to take a firm grip, both economically and in terms of roll back, I can but only dream.

[Tom_Doak]

I had hoped places like Sand Hills and Steamsong might be in with a shout but with 7,500 yards now looking short and reluctance from the powers that be to take a firm grip, both economically and in terms of roll back, I can but only dream.

There is never going to be a professional Tour event out in western Nebraska.

Streamsong might be a possibility someday, just because it is owned by a large corporation that could fund a Tour event if they wanted one.  It's possible they would do so to show off their reclamation work ... but I doubt they would want to host one every year.  It seems more likely that they would go after a USGA event, if anything.  I'm sure we could find enough tees there to make it work out, given the scope of the property and perhaps the chance to borrow a couple of holes from the "other" course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

Is the introduction of MORE bunkers in semi-random locations an interim solution ?

What if the problem continues to get worse ?

What if 320 becomes the number twenty years from now ?

The concept of a rollback has, inherent in that concept, static or fixed distance, whereas, saying that distance is currently maxed out, almost invites continued efforts to produce more distance on the part of the manufacturers for marketing/sales purposes.

Distance will increase.

Perhaps it won't make quantum leaps, but it will increase, and the question for you and your peers, on existing and new courses is, what can you do to retain their challenge for the best players while keeping the game fun and challenging for all others ?

[Jeff Goldman]

Terry,

Nope. Basically fixing the bunkers, which haven't been cleaned out in 12 years, and renovating member tees which haven't been leveled or worked on since 1993 or 4.

Jeff

[Jonathan Mallard]

This just a tidbit from an instruction article in the May GOLF DIGEST, from the mouth of Hunter Mahan.  He's been working on hitting the ball longer to compensate for course set-ups on Tour that require longer and longer carry distances.

I am not shocked by the number ... I asked several players last year about carry distances to check what we were planning for the Rio project.  Several of them said that a 290 carry was "no problem", even though Mike Davis told me that the USGA's stats showed very few players hitting it consistently that far.

It's pretty funny that all the stats show the average driving distance not to be growing much, when the top players all claim to CARRY the ball that far in the air on demand.  The other word for it is "denial".

Tom,

I can't square your third paragraph with what you reported from the US Am last year at Common Ground. I get that there is altitude, and wind aided, but the events on the 9th hole would seem to make the 290 carry much less a surprise.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53166.msg1221123/topicseen.html#msg1221123

[Terry Lavin]

Terry,

Nope. Basically fixing the bunkers, which haven't been cleaned out in 12 years, and renovating member tees which haven't been leveled or worked on since 1993 or 4.

Jeff

Well that's good to hear.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

I can't square your third paragraph with what you reported from the US Am last year at Common Ground. I get that there is altitude, and wind aided, but the events on the 9th hole would seem to make the 290 carry much less a surprise.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53166.msg1221123/topicseen.html#msg1221123

Jonathan:

At Common Ground, I wasn't watching the tee shots land at the ninth, but nobody was driving the green on the fly ... even at 5200 feet and with a 25-mph wind at their back.  There was a fair bit of roll-out for them to drive that green.

You do bring up a good point, though, that I discussed offline earlier today.  There is a very big difference between carrying it 290 yards, at sea level, in cool conditions, with no wind, and carrying 290 with a bit of altitude or warmer weather or any help from the wind.  Maybe not so many guys carry it that far in test conditions, but all that matters is whether they can carry the bunker on the course they're playing this week.

[Pete_Pittock]

Carry distance is also affected by hole elevation changes. If you get to a course where the architect routes a hole from an elevated tee to a visible fairway below them, it will increase carry distance. The eraly year stats are always skewed by Kapalua Plantation.

[Peter Pallotta]

Seems to me that the issue is not only about the carry distance involved, it's also about the narrowing of fairways that accompany it.  A carry bunker at 290+ yards is only meaningful/effective in the Tour's eyes if there is almost no choice involved, i.e. if it's either carry the bunker or play short of it. (If there was lots of room off to the side of that carry bunker, it might mean accuracy -- or god forbid, even luck -- would play too big a relative role in the equation.) And so to ensure this, the fairways get pinched-in at that same 290 yard mark, which at classic old courses being readied to hold majors means that those fairways get narrowed from tee to green, and on every hole, and result in that awful bunkers-stranded-in-a-sea-of-rough look that is a sure sign that the architectural design/intent is now moot/being thrown overboard.

Peter

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom's original point is a complete bugbear of mine.

The trend to put all bunkers at 270-290 yards from the back tees has been the single biggest cause of identkit and boring design over the last number of years.

Mix it up. Provide some chaos.

[David Davis]

I tend to think many of these guys can turn it up to carry 290 when they have to. At least most the guys in the top say 50. I'd say the exception to the rule are the guys you all have mentioned. Donald for example can hit the ball on a dime but also seems to swing at about 70%. I bet he could if he had to move toward a more Bubba approach and sacrifice some accuracy. Maybe not but that's just one example.

I stood next to Henrik Stenson on the range last year at the KLM Open and there was a 50' net placed at 250 meters. I watched him hit his 3 wood over it, then drop his ball on the ground and hit the driver off the ground over the net 10 balls in a row. Now I think he was playing around a bit and he's very long but if 290 is what it's going to take to make it interesting for them fine, as long as courses can be designed in a way that they remain fun and interesting and varied for us.

I guess this just makes it more challenging for the archies to work with the growing gap between them "the pros" and the rest.

[Sean_A]

Tom's original point is a complete bugbear of mine.

The trend to put all bunkers at 270-290 yards from the back tees has been the single biggest cause of identkit and boring design over the last number of years.

Mix it up. Provide some chaos.

I agree. Set numbers for carry distance smacks of championship golf and that is the last thing golf design needs.  The more talk there is about bunker carry distances the less archies should rely on them for interest and challenge.  Its one thing to build for the top players and another to build for everybody else.  I am not sure archies should be focused on trying to accommodate all players all of the time. 

Ciao 

[Jud_T]

What percentage of this board can even hit the ball 290, forget about CARRYING it that far? 2%?  If this isn't a red flag for a Tournament Ball then I don't know what is.

[Bruce Katona]

I just demo'ed a new Taylor Made Driver......250 carry 265 or so with roll out on the simulator.  I told the fitter that "if you can get me out to 285 I'll take it right now." He laughed.

I actually played with it yesterday....sunny & 55 at elevation 150......I got 1-2 out 250 with roll out and that was about it.

Then again at 5'10 160 (with my golf shoes on) I'm not getting much extra from a Pro V1 as swing speed just ins't there to attain the rocket boost.

Turning points at 290 are fine with me.

[Brent Hutto]

The only "rocket boost" available from a Pro V1 is the one you provide by generating another 25mph of clubhead speed. Don't let the magical thinking around here convince you otherwise.

[Josh Tarble]

Tom,

Was the Kiwi Challenge in 2009 the only "pro event" that's been contested on one of your courses?  How did Cape Kidnappers hold up?

Although, 2009 is ancient in golf equipment these days...

[David Bartman]

Here are the Trackman stats for carry distance from the Tour this year:

http://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.html

Last year:

http://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.html#2012

Plenty of guys on Tour who can't average or even get to 290 of carry.

If you look at their max carry, 95 of top 100 have carried over 290!!

[Wade Whitehead]

Don't diagonals take care of some of this?

WW

[Doug Siebert]

Here are the Trackman stats for carry distance from the Tour this year:

http://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.html

Last year:

http://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.html#2012

Plenty of guys on Tour who can't average or even get to 290 of carry.

If you look at their max carry, 95 of top 100 have carried over 290!!

Unless we know the conditioners under which they will/won't measure drives, that doesn't mean much.  I carried one about 325 in cool conditions this Saturday during my first time touching a club since mid-November.  Of course this was from a tee elevated by 40-50 feet with a following wind of at least 20 mph

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