Keswick Hall - Significant Remodel by Pete Dye Underway

[Ross Harmon]

The first part of the 60 Minutes Sports piece on Pete showed the project underway at Keswick Hall.

Here's some more information on the project I found. Looks like a nice piece of property!

http://www.nbc29.com/story/21884401/well-known-course-designer-in-charge-of-keswick-club-renovation

http://www.keswickclub.com/golf_course.aspx

[Matt Albanese]

Anyone know how this turned out? The new course is scheduled to open late this summer. I found some pictures on their Facebook page but I am interested in hearing more about the course.https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.781760985188064.1073741826.155725561124946&type=1

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Course open. Take a tour:

http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/full-cry-keswick-golf-club-14850.htm

[Dave Givnish]

The course has been renamed Full Cry. I saw it about a month before it opened. The Dyes were charged to make it enjoyable for resort players and higher handicap members and challenging for the flat bellies. It looked like that would be the case. They told the owners that the old course was hard for the higher handicaps and easy for the low handicaps, and by reversing that, I think that the changes will be well received.

The appearance of the course is refined but comfortable like the hotel. The greens appeared to be generally on the small side but all had ample room to run shots up. Long approach shots look like they will reward precision and punish errant shots. If they don't over water the course, it looks playing a ground game will be fun. The four finishing holes are strong. This will stand up well next to Spring Creek and Farmington.

Green to tee distances are reasonable. Railroad ties were used on only one hole. They used the old cart paths as stone walls around the property.

I'm looking forward to playing it in the spring.

[Jamey Bryan]

This is very interesting to me.  When I was at The University ('72-'76) the Keswick course was a goat track, and Keswick Hall was a dilapidated ruin not much used for anything.  We played there fairly often as it was cheap and the University's Birdwood course was yet to be built.

I played the Palmer Group's version of Keswick a number of times, most recently five years or so ago when in Charlottesville for a wedding.  That course was largely uninteresting and (I thought, though I'm certainly no flatbelly low capper) very easy.  The reception was at Keswick so the bride's father had reserved some times for guests, but I regretted not playing my Sat. morning round at Farmington (where I was staying and a course I like very much).  Of course,  I might have also been influenced by 1) having been very much overserved the previous evening at the Clifton Inn rehearsal dinner, and 2)  the Friday round at Kenloch also hosted by the bride's father!  Hard for any course to shine following that Friday.....

I hope to play the new iteration of Keswick soon......    It is nice land with good movement and the scenery is wonderful.  Will be interested to see what Mr. Dye built.

Jamey

[Mike_Trenham]

What is going on with Trump and the Kluge Essate golf course rebuild?

[Jon Cavalier]

I'm playing there tomorrow. I'll post some photos.

[Dave Givnish]

The Donald's property may take a while to get off the ground. There seems to be a good deal of local opposition to the project. The area has a long history of opposing development so this is nothing new, just maybe a bit more focused because of Trump. Not to say that local opposition has ever kept him from completing a project. I think that the land has a conservation easement on it so that adds to the challenges.

Farmington has been able to ride on the coattails though. They hired Coore/Crenshaw to rework the East nine into an executive course plus a practice area and teaching range. That work is supposed to start either next year or in 2016.

[Jon Cavalier]

As I noted above, I played Keswick recently.  While I had some mixed feelings (and perhaps some bias, because I played Keswick smack in the middle of a run of top notch golf courses), overall I was plesantly surprised, and I think that as the course matures, it will receive largely favorable reviews. 

I played the course with a non-member who had played the course once several years ago, and so was able to get at least a faint impression of what the course was like before.  The site of the golf course is undeniably very pretty, and I understand that Dye opened up many sightlines, which appears to have had a great effect on the visuals.  The course has some very strong holes - the 6th, 15th and 16th come to mind, and some easier.  I thought the greens were fantastic -- they were in great condition, and the breaks were mostly subtle rather than being overwrought. 

As promised, here are a handful of photos from my round.

Hole 1 - Tee View


Hole 2 - Green View


Hole 3 - Fairway View


Hole 4 - Tee View (not a fan of the bunkering)


Hole 6 - Tee View


Hole 6 - Reverse View from 7th Tee


Hole 9 - Fairway View


Hole 14 - Tee View


Hole 16 - Tee View (probably my favorite hole on the course)

[Jason Thurman]

Jon Cavalier is the Anthony Davis of GCA photo posting right now.

I don't know anything about the course, but it looks pretty sweet in the photos.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Appalling.

[Jack Parrish]

@ Mark

What do you find appalling? Explain, please.

[Mark Bourgeois]

On what looks like a piece of land interesting enough to stand on its own, they spent all that money building bunkers all over the hole - it looks like Charlie Brown's Halloween costume - then they skimped and didn't locate the cart path out of sight. They had the land and the money and this is what they came up with?

[BCrosby]

Remove the six bunkers on the left. (Somebody was trying too hard.) It will simplify and improve the look of the hole. As a bonus, you save yourself the maintenance costs. 

If you are going to build a cart path that is so obvious, buy into it. Run it directly behind the green, build a little wall and call it a par 3 Road Hole. 

Helpfully, Bob

[Jack Parrish]

Bob,

Thanks for the insight. Aren't those extra bunkers very typical on recent Dye courses?

Mark,

I still think appalling is the wrong adjective for the picture. I would assume that cart path was already there before the redo- and probably a necessity considering it is in the foothills of the Blue Ridge (lots of orange clay in that part of the Commonwealth) and a resort.

Do you find all the pictures appalling?

[BCrosby]

"Aren't those extra bunkers very typical on recent Dye courses?"

I haven't seen any recent Dye courses, but I have seen Whistling Straits on TV. If that entitles me to an opinion, the profligate bunkering at WS is unappealing to my eye for similar reasons. It is a magnificent piece of land that did not need a couple thousand bunkers; like a beautiful woman wearing too much make-up.    

Bob

[Brent Hutto]

I've got to say that photo does look like the "bunker" section of a truly world-class, fabulous short-game practice area. As part of an actual golf course it is definitely over the top.

[Jon Cavalier]

Jon Cavalier is the Anthony Davis of GCA photo posting right now.

I don't know anything about the course, but it looks pretty sweet in the photos.

This might be the nicest complement I've ever received. First and likely last time I've drawn a comparison to Anthony Davis. Love it. Fear the Brow.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jack,

Most of the other pics look okay. Leaving aside the question of which adjective to use, they plopped down Whistling Straits East in a place where you never ever would see something like that. So just on that it's a misstep. And as you note that's red clay country, so adding all those bunkers lards on the maintenance expense.

And here we come to the nub: putting in all those bunkers, and subsequently maintaining them properly, costs money. They spent money putting in features where, if you took them all away -- and I'm not saying take all of them away, not necessarily -- if you took them all away, you'd still have what looks like it might be a very interesting hole. The land looks interesting.

So, starting with the positive of that land, they then spent however much money it cost to install (and to maintain) those bunkers to make it less interesting and less attractive. And then, just to really drive a stake through the heart of the native attractiveness of the land, they left that cart path where they did. I mean, if you set out to make a piece of land look less attractive, using as your weapon a golf hole, how could you do any better than this?

To quote Lionel Hutz, case closed.

[Bill Gayne]

Heck of a lot better than what was there before. I think if before and after photos were posted everyone would agree that the remodel was a significant upgrade.

[Jack Parrish]

Mark,

It should be noted that Lionel Hutz was dismissed from the Bar association sometime in season 7. (FXX's addition of every Simpsons ever has changed my weeknights)

I understand what you are saying. However, I vehemently disagree that this golf hole is the worst that anyone could do to make the land look worse...you're standards must be extremely high...

I just think it is a little curious that the one thing that people decided to point out, on a new course, with only several pictures, that no one has seen in person, or played (except Jon) is the bunkers on that par three. I didn't see the same comments concerning the contrived mounds visible in Jon's Somerset Hills photo tour... Why? Isn't that something of the same?

FYI- this is all for the purpose of discussion- not trying to make anyone angry.

[Matt Kardash]

Jack,

When it's on a new course it's a gimmick and contrived, when it's on an old course it's charming and quirky. Welcome to Golf Club Atlas 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Matt and Jack,

Okay, I'll open my mind. How do the bunkering and cart path make this an excellent hole?

[Jack Parrish]

Mark,

I didn't say it was an excellent hole. In fact, I don't believe anyone can determine something like that until they have played the hole in person. I also believe this picture is taken from the cart path and not from the tee box, maybe the angles look just a little different standing a few yards to the left (maybe???)... I also believe I could hit something into those bunkers on the left, possibly even the furthest- and I bet you other visitors to this course could too. 

I do think the bunkers are very "Pete Dye"- Those little pot bunkers strewn, maybe to a fault, throughout the course is something that makes a course his own. Quirky, yes. Appalling? No.

Cart paths, despite their appearance, are a necessary evil. Keswick is a resort. Most Americans want to ride in a cart and zip around the course. I am not saying that is a good thing, but rather a reality of resorts and most modern courses. I would have loved to see the redo focus on walking and only used paths only as a means for maintenance, but clearly they didn't. Oh well.

Finally, and maybe this is more of what I am getting at, I feel like GCA is quick to praise or dismiss courses, designs, or designers based on little evidence (pictures, designer, location, etc..). The forum has so many merits, but far too often I am turned off by blanket generalizations that condemn courses and posters  simply because it was not designed by C&C or Tom Doak, or they are simpleton recreational golf architecture fans (like me).

[Mark Bourgeois]

Jack,

Hold on there, chief. I'm not condemning Keswick, Pete Dye, bunkers, or par 3s. I'm also not saying "no cart paths."

I am saying it sure looks like the land would embrace far fewer bunkers and the hole would be more interesting and fun to play had it been toned down to no or one bunker -- say, had the principle of bunker asymmetry* been employed. Leaving aside aesthetic preferences for a cleaner, less-cluttered hole, the money spent on those bunkers could have been spent rerouting or otherwise hiding the cart path.



*Not every hole needs bunkers on both sides to be interesting, and certainly not green sites with interesting land.