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Connor Dougherty

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All Star Snub??? AAC Entry #23
« on: April 05, 2013, 02:33:32 AM »
Hello All,
As so many have already done, I want to thank Alex, the judges, and everyone else on setting this up. It's a learning process for all of us and as someone who does hope to do this one day, it's a great place to start. I've designed golf holes, but never with a topo map, and this process was a great learning experience. I wish I had been more of a participant (specifically voting), but the end of this competition and the start of voting was during finals and the start of spring break, and I don't feel like I could have selected the 5 best routings out of the bunch.

Since I want to do this some day, I'd love to hear what you would have changed or thought was a little off. Like I mentioned, this is a learning experience, and how critical you are of the design will teach me more about what to look for in the future.

I think it's worth starting out with some problems I ran into, which since you will inevitably be mentioning/looking for some of these, I'll get them out of the way:

  • I had noticed that a few of the green to tee transitions were a little off. After the designs were submitted, I actually edited a few of these things and think the course is better off because of it. The two maps are below and marked
  • I had originally done the on an 8.5x11 piece of paper to get the routing, and had 18 facing more to the north. I wanted to be able to use that hillside as a diagonal hazard, and when doing the final version of the routing on an 11x17 piece of paper, I couldn't get the 18th tee to the original location. I figured it's slightly NW direction would be enough for golf in the summers, presumably when members would be playing their most golf. Otherwise at a club this remote, a group could easily tee off on the 10th and play the back 9 first with little chance of an interruption.
  • It's too long for my liking. I would like to be designing courses that are shorter, and I found it a challenge to use all of the features of the property. I'm thinking I'm going to take another crack at the property and see if I can do a shorter version (with a little help from everyone else's designs  8)

Now, to the design. Below I have attached a sheet which included green sites I found, my 8.5x11 routing (which touched on the basic ideas of my design), the design that was submitted, and lastly the slight changes I made after submitting the design (these changes are minimal). After that is a hole by hole description. The intention was to have two "members tee-box" that moved around each day similar to Prestwick. What can I say, I'm an idealist ;D.

Potential Green Locations


Small Sheet Simple Routing


Original Entry


Edited, Final Drawing


1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   IN
595   400   200   490   400   215   395   480   465   3640

10   11   12   13   14   15   16   17   18   OUT
475   520   455   475   125   430   485   165   590   3720

I envisioned a club that had a membership which was less concerned with the rating and slope of the golf course, that wasn’t concerned with par, and wanted to see a new course every day. They wanted to be able to have a challenge when playing the golf course. So the yardages may list the maximum of each hole, but with two members sets of tees (one for men, one for women) being moved around, the golfer would play the hole at a different yardage each day.

Hooker Golf Club is similar to Prestwick in this sense, and a return to some of the origins of the game. No par, no definite yardages, and no ratings. There is no second cut of rough, just fairway, green, and the fescue/marram grass that covers the sand hills. Golfers can play short loops in a form of “sunset golf” if they are pressed on time or have already played a round and want to fit a few more holes. A 3 hole loop can be played off the front 9, while a 7 hole loop can be played off of the back. Similarly, a group that starts later in the day would ideally tee off on 10 and play the back 9 first so that he finishes facing away from the sun.

Hole Descriptions
Hole 1: A long hole to start the round and get the juices flowing. The closer you take on the bunkers the better of an angle into the green you can have for your second and 3rd. 2 good drives make this hole reachable. A central fairway bunker short of the green dictates where to lay up.


Hole 2: Similar to Riviera’s 10th with a little more length, the hole is downhill and can be played a myriad of ways. When the tees are moved up this hole is drivable, but the green is hard to hold and getting up and down from the fronting bunker or the short grass area behind (sitting below the green complex) is a difficult task.



Hole 3: A redan built into the peninsula on the hillside.

Hole 4: Dogleg right played up and over the hill. The further the drive carries left over the bunkers, the bigger a kick it gets over the hill.

Hole 5: Downhill played to a horseshoe green. The best angle is dependent on the pin position.

Hole 6: Longer one-shotter played back toward the clubhouse. The slope to the right can be used to play into the green, and the bunker behind is not as intimidating a it seems, placed into the hillside. The toughest position to play from is short and left of the green, where a depression in the ground swallows up balls and leaves a particularly difficult up and down.

Hole 7: A two shotter played up the hill, the ideal position is on the right side of the fairway after the tee shot. While the bunkers seem to have no effect on the golf shot, the slopes can bring the ball to them, and the golfer who is unaware of this may make a tragic mistake.



Hole 8: A split-fairway long hole that provides plenty of options. Playing up the left fairway may make the hole a bit longer, but leaves a much better angle into this elongated green. Playing up the right side leaves a more difficult approach but possibly a shorter one.

Hole 9: An alps hole with the green set in a valley. Playing up the left side can leave a view into the green, but the fairway narrows the more it continues on. The green is largely unprotected, but a series of swales in the large green can make putting a difficult task.



Hole 10: Fairly straightaway two shotter, with the better angle coming from the left side. The bunker that guards the right side of the green is particularly penal.



Hole 11: The best angle is afforded from the left side along the hole, but playing up the right leaves the possibility of reaching this green in 2. The edge of the property guards the left side of the 2nd half of this hole and plays OB.

Hole 12: A hole that plays over the crest of a hill, then down and back up to the green. Getting up and down from the front is difficult, and the best approach to the green is from the left.



Hole 13: A hole based on the original Lido hole by Alister MacKenzie. The island leaves both the best angle and the shortest route, but has the biggest risk associated with it.

Hole 14: A short  hole played to a blind green, but the pin is visible. The green mimics MacKenzie’s famed version at Sitwell Park



Hole 15: A slight cape hole where the golfer can cut off as much as he wants. Ideally the golfer can play it a bit more safe, playing up the right side of the fairway and leaving a good angle into the green.


Hole 16: A dogleg left, bunkers protect the inside of the dogleg. The green has contours similar to that of 8 at Augusta National, with mounds guarding each side of the green as the golfer turns into more severe terrain.



Hole 17: An S shaped green, which can be played into many ways. A slope that turns the ball right in the middle can be used to play to a mid-right pin, as well as hitting a low runner to a back pin position.



Hole 18: A long hole to finish using deep bunkers on the hillside. The longer hitter may be able to carry these bunkers off the tee and reach the green in two. Once around the bunkers this is the widest fairway on the golf course.

"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All Star Snub??? AAC Entry #23
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2013, 03:48:32 AM »
Connor
I was really impressed with your design, and assumed this was done by a professional of some description so well done.

I had you at #2, but the following pushed you out of my top 5 - but have suggested your level of presentation the ideal bench mark for this kind of competition.
Remember, I am voting based on the criteria, and wearing the hat of an owner reveiwing 25 design submissions.

Lost points for no accomodation, no yardages (I had to go and measure all of them using the scale on the page) no pars, driving range in the middle (with all this space, why have it front and centre - we have sunset holes for extra play, so for me the range is really only as warm up), and as with many of the designs, two holes at 395 & 400 are the shortest par 4's - too long imo. your description above that 2 at 400 yds would be driveable by moving tees up - cant imagine that. ...and a flaw I had in my notes for your B9: the 3 p4's all play S/SW and using the scale measured 420, 420, 430 - boring.

Loved the par 3's, although one heading north would have been an beneficial. and your tee boxes were my favourite also.

I cannot see any reason for you not to win the next one!! :)
@theflatsticker

Dieter Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All Star Snub??? AAC Entry #23
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2013, 08:13:43 AM »
Connor, I had you in my top 10 but not the top 5. I thought yours was a great example of a course with simple graphics that had enough detail. You found a good middle ground there. Like Brett I thought it looked very professional.

In the end I thought the course could have done with some shorter holes for variety like a sub 140 yard 3 or sub 330 yard 4. I thought your sunset option to jump from 1 to 8 was clever. I liked the back nine stretch from 12 -16.
Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All Star Snub??? AAC Entry #23
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2013, 10:56:53 AM »
Connor,

I think you were my 5th place vote. (I guess I liked the snubs  ;))


Some thoughts:

I would've liked to have seen 9's fairway work less around that slope and more over the top. Looks like a really cool greensite.
Taking on that ridge on 18 head-on was a real turn off for me. It was a prominently used feature in this contest, but I felt it was much more strategic when used at a diagonal of some sort.
Great "kinks" in your loop to keep a variety in hole direction.
Cool sunset loop option playing 8 on a different part of the fairway.
Ditto Dieter on the driving range and par 4 lengths. If these are the back tee yardages 165 is short enough for me (that's an 8 iron downhill).

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All Star Snub??? AAC Entry #23
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2013, 11:02:35 AM »
Connor,
I really liked your entry...in fact it was one that I voted for.  I think my main critique was lack of short 4s or 3s.

I thought hole 8 and the option for the evening loop was fantastic.  Unlike Alex, I thought 18 was really cool.  Your use of the the ravine was completely unique compared to others.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All Star Snub??? AAC Entry #23
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2013, 11:56:25 AM »
Connor,
I really liked your entry...in fact it was one that I voted for.  I think my main critique was lack of short 4s or 3s.

I thought hole 8 and the option for the evening loop was fantastic.  Unlike Alex, I thought 18 was really cool.  Your use of the the ravine was completely unique compared to others.


You know, I'm probably projecting too much. It may have been a combination of going at the slope that way AND jogging left to go around the ridge. If you had gone further right, an aggressive drive left would be left with a blind approach while the safe route up to the right would have a better visual up the ridge. In its current form 18 seemed like it could be a nightmare for a higher handicap player who doesn't execute.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All Star Snub??? AAC Entry #23
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2013, 12:01:33 PM »
Alex,
I agree it could probably be a handful for high handicappers...I just liked it in that it was something different and I think there was an "easy" way around...it just may take a bit more.  I also was thinking it may be possible to carry the ravine from the tee.  That may not be the case though.

Jim Colton

Re: All Star Snub??? AAC Entry #23
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2013, 12:54:46 PM »
Very cool to see the evolution of the routing. Learning how things came to be is one of the best things about the AAC (and maybe even GCA, more broadly speaking)

While holes like 8 and 18 get points for uniqueness, I did wonder how well they worked in practice. I owe it to Connor to take a closer look at them.

Connor, it looked like one of your earlier versions had a lot more width that your final submission. Was that you coming to the conclusion the some of your original fairways were unrealistically wide and therefore needed to be reigned in a bit. They certainly look cool (as did your final submission).


Connor Dougherty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: All Star Snub??? AAC Entry #23
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2013, 06:36:21 PM »
Thanks for all your comments.

To answer some questions

  • I definitly blanked on adding a lodge. Once I saw other people's submissions I realized that this was something that should have been added.
  • I put the driving range in the center because I thought it had the best proximity to the parking lot/clubhouse etc. I considered putting it off the first tee hitting out away from the road (facing SW) but I thought the walk from the clubhouse past 1 to there, or for that matter, walking from the range to the 10th tee, might be a little annoying. That being said, considering the nature of the club, I probably would have put cabins by the 18th green and the distance to the range would be negated.
  • Alex mentioned that the ridge was taken head on. It's actually at a slight diagonal from the tee box (To clear the left edge of it is about 350 from the back edge of the tee box, but the right side is 300, which is why I think that tee would hardly be used at the back) I would have given it a bit more of a diagonal, but that would have put the hole facing due west, and on a "sunset" course, I think this would have been a disaster, and probably would have been the first thing pointed out on the design. The slight offset, especially during the summer months, puts the sun off to the side. I had tried to originally run the hole more to the North and have the diagonal move left to right, but I found it difficult to get to where the hole was on the preliminary drawing.
  • The length has been mentioned and it is an issue. As I keep tinkering with this property it's something I'm trying to work out. I want to make the course a bit shorter. There are a few short par 3s (most notably the 14th, which is 125 yards).
  • To answer Jim's first question, I think 8 would have worked well, but I did wonder if any golfer would take the route to the right. The way the hole was designed, the best angle is from that left fairway (where the mounds would be on the sides rather than the front and back. I think I'm going to continue to think about how to make that hole better. In practice, I think 18 works pretty well. Playing up the left leaves a blind shot but makes the green reachable, and since you don't have to carry anything I felt that the blind shot was okay. It seemed like if you were far enough left you would be able to see the pin too.
  • As for the preliminary routing, that is exactly the case. As mentioned, I did it on a smaller sheet of paper, and I found it was difficult to put the detail in. The fairways were obviously unrealistically wide, and I realized this originally, but the biggest difference was realizing the green to tee gaps and the size of the greens. On a bigger scale, that started to stick out more.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley