[John Kavanaugh]

John,

How is it a long par 4? It's 410 from the back tees and 367 from the member tees. That makes it one of the shorter par 4s on the course. I realize that there is another tee back there at 475 or something but its not even on the card and its probably only used during the Tour event. And certainly your point about it being a hole where the short hitter can contend with the longer hitter is moot because the short hitter is certainly not playing that hole from 475.

Last time I played Riviera it was on Monday after the championship.  We played the Sunday set up and I hit driver, 7 iron, wedge.  Even watching this Sunday I thought the pros were hitting 7 or 8 irons in which translates to far more than 410.

I was lucky enough one day to play the member tees, with the real Lloyd Braun no less, and had the time of my life.  Riviera from the short tees is as good as it gets. 

[Bill McKinley]

John,

How is it a long par 4? It's 410 from the back tees and 367 from the member tees. That makes it one of the shorter par 4s on the course. I realize that there is another tee back there at 475 or something but its not even on the card and its probably only used during the Tour event. And certainly your point about it being a hole where the short hitter can contend with the longer hitter is moot because the short hitter is certainly not playing that hole from 475.

Last time I played Riviera it was on Monday after the championship.  We played the Sunday set up and I hit driver, 7 iron, wedge.  Even watching this Sunday I thought the pros were hitting 7 or 8 irons in which translates to far more than 410.

I was lucky enough one day to play the member tees, with the real Lloyd Braun no less, and had the time of my life.  Riviera from the short tees is as good as it gets. 

Wait wait wait, you played with the REAL Lloyd Braun??? That's awesome! Serenity now, insanity later.  Is he friends with Larry David or something? As you can tell I'm a huge Seinfeld fan.

Anyway, to your point about the yardage, yes the pro yardage is definitely in the 470 area and that is a long par 4.  Either way it wasn't one of my favorites and that wonderful place.

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes the real Lloyd Braun.  He lost a bet with Larry David so had to endure that character's creation.  I had a horrible fan boy moment when it finally hit me on the 17th hole where I had heard the name before.  I actually asked the guy if he had seen the Seinfeld episode.  It is hard to believe that at that moment I was the biggest douche in all of L.A.  No small feat.  Lloyd was cool about it and told me the story for what would have been the millionth time.  The pleasure that Larry David must have gotten from winning that bet is higher stakes than I have ever played.

To make matters worse we are in the 18th fairway and Lloyd's 13 year old son needs a bogey to break 80 for the first time in his life.  I don't remember the exact particulars but the boy found himself in a bit a trouble and asked my recommendation on what shot to hit.  I told the lad to man up and go for it and not worry about breaking 80. Lloyd comes running over recommended playing for bogey and breaking 80.  The kid didn't listen to his dad and made double.  Not a serenity now moment.

I double douched the real Lloyd Braun on his home course.  You can't make this stuff up.

[Bill McKinley]

Holy crap John that is such a good story!! I could totally see myself doing the same thing when meeting a character like that.  Tough luck on the advise to his son, you win some, you lose some. 

[Nigel Islam]

The kid should have just done the opposite ala Costanza!

[Kevin Stark]

Thought I would revive this thread. It definitely invites some good conversation! I went with the method of using the same courses that I used in my favorite holes thread.

Here we go...

1. Muirfield - way too narrow for an opener on that golf course.
2. Canterbury - some tree work needed in landing area left side. Also there's only 1 real hole location on the green
3. Camargo - awkward hole. Either not short enough or not long enough
4. Carnoustie - pretty blah hole despite the double green it shares with the "spectacles" hole
5. LACC North - this and #14 at LA are almost identical. Tough choice but had to put one on there
6. Turnberry Alisa - I expected more
7. Pinehurst #2 - not enough of a risk reward tee shot for such a sharp dogleg, might be better post-renovation though
8. Seminole - seemed really out of place
9. TOC - like others have said. Pretty bland from start to finish
10. Bethpage Black - way too much Rees Jones here. Long and straight with exceedingly deep green side bunkers
11. Oakmont - would have chose #16 but I had MV's 16th needs to be on the list more
12. Riviera - apart from the Bogart tree, I wasn't impressed.
13. Fox Chapel - sharp dogleg right that is easily the 18th best hole on this course
14. Merion East - just can't get over the ridiculous mound to the left of the green.
15. Yeamans Hall - relatively uninteresting, especially when sandwiched in between 14, 16, 17
16. Muirfield Village - my easiest choice
17. Kingsbarns - not too sure what's wrong with it, but it wasn't one of my favorites and needed something here. 11 would be my 1st choice
18. Canton Brookside - Not a fan of the back to back par 5 finish. I think this hole would be much better as a 400 yard par 4 with a bigger green

A tough exercise for sure but a fun one nonetheless. Now tell me why I'm wrong 

Interesting...I thought #3 at Camargo was really, really good. I thought each choice off the tee (layup left, layup right, get near the green) has pros and cons, with different trouble lurking for each option. Of course I played with a guy in the US Am qualifier there who drove it over the green and made 7. My first impression was one of drama.

[Bill McKinley]

Kevin,

You played with a guy who drove it over the green from 320 uphill?? Wow that's a big hitter. Either way I wouldn't consider #3 as a drivable par 4. Your playing partner in the Am qualifier says otherwise but the overwhelming majority of those who play that hole as a drive and wedge hole. If I could hit it over 320 off the tee I would change my opinion. 

[Kevin Stark]

True story. He flew it on the green and it rolled over. When he pulled driver, I was trying to figure out where he was trying to position it and then he did that. The guy was the longest hitter I've ever seen, much less played with. He hit 7 iron into 17...into a slight breeze. He also didn't break 80. Camargo suffers no fools.

[Ally Mcintosh]

This is hard to do because I don't think there are many bad holes.  Going on least admirable holes; my first run through.

1. Painswick - the course is recognized here - if architecture is this bad it should at least be downhill

2. Bulls Bay - a slog par 5 bending around water the whole way Pennard

3. North Berwick - a slog par 4 to an uninteresting green - the wall gets too much credit

4. Sandwich - to come up with this after altering a famous hole is unforgivable

5. Whittington Heath - sad, very sad

6. Aberdovey - blah

7. Carne - a truly bad hole with a greensite which is laughable  Dornoch

8. Addington - hogback hell

9. Cruden Bay - this is one of the most boring holes I have ever come across on a famous course  TOC - doesn't work on any level

10. Ballybunion Cashen - crazy narrow - just a bad hole Little Aston

11. Lahinch - there can be no excuse for taking out the Dr Mac hole

12. Hoylake - noah canah do two reverse doglegs in three holes

13. Ballybunion Old - may as well be at Carne

14. St Enodoc - nothing to recommend it

15. Notts - way too long given the green site  Cruden Bay

16. Yeamans Hall - Biaritzzzzzzzzzzzz, not a great concept

17. Tobacco Road - don't know why anyone plays the 17th when the 18th tee is a shorter walk from the 16th green

18. Machrihanish - what a shocker  Harlech, Co Down

Ciao

Only just noticed this thread so I'll pick Sean's post because I'm so familiar with many of the holes and agree with many of his choices... But 13 on Ballybunion Old?! Have you numbered this wrong?...

13 has a beautifully sited Tom Simpson green....

[ChipOat]

This thread is the inverse (converse?) of Dan Jenkins' 1966 book about the Greatest 18 Holes in Golf?

Question:  Does "worst" hole have to mean a "bad" hole in somebody's opinion?

The reason I ask is that there is one hole at Pine Valley that, IMO, if it were not at PVGC and didn't "look" like PVGC, it would NOT likely be considered the best hole at most every other course in the US of A.  However, it's not a "bad" hole, at all.  In fact, from the new back tee, it's hard as hell.  But, IMO, if you stripped away how it looks, and put it on any other course, there would probably be other holes that were "better".

Let's call it the "least distinctive".

[Tim_Weiman]

This is a pretty cool thread. Thanks to John K!

That said, I want to second what Tom Doak said about #15 at Augusta being a bad hole. This hole always seems so pivotal during the Masters, but every time I have walked across the fairway, I always thought it would be a really hard, unpleasant place to play a third shot from. The downslope is really severe. No fun at all.

It is interesting because I always thought Mackenzie didn't want to make things too penal for the average player.

Did Mackenzie fail on this hole? Does anyone disagree that #15  is too hard for the average player (who can neither get home in two nor play the downhill pitch shot for his third)?

[Sven Nilsen]

This is a pretty cool thread. Thanks to John K!

That said, I want to second what Tom Doak said about #15 at Augusta being a bad hole. This hole always seems so pivotal during the Masters, but every time I have walked across the fairway, I always thought it would be a really hard, unpleasant place to play a third shot from. The downslope is really severe. No fun at all.

It is interesting because I always thought Mackenzie didn't want to make things too penal for the average player.

Did Mackenzie fail on this hole? Does anyone disagree that #15  is too hard for the average player (who can neither get home in two nor play the downhill pitch shot for his third)?

Tim:

The original design of the green and surrounds was very different from what we see today:

"the water (described as a ditch, ravine, creek, stream and moat) was at least 20 yards short of the green, with a gentle bank, not a steep slope, in between."

Changes the penal nature of the hole a bit.

Sven

[Tim_Weiman]

Sven,

Thanks. That hole has been tinkered with a lot in recent years that I guess I didn't think about your point

So, while Mackenzie may not have been wrong or unfaithful to his design principles, Tom Doak is right that, in its current configuration, Augusta's 15th isn't very good for most players.

How does the 15 handicap player play it?

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Thanks. That hole has been tinkered with a lot in recent that I guess I didn't think about your point

So, while Mackenzie may not have been wrong or unfaithful to his design principles, Tom Doak is right that, in its current configuration, Augusta's 15th isn't very good for most players.

How does the 15 handicap player play it?

When trying to muscle up to get the ball  in a decent spot to go for it, they pull hook a drive that leaves them blocked out by the trees on the left.  Punch a ball through the gap hoping not to run through into the trees on the right.  Since they're still to far out to go for it, they try to lay up at the bottom of the hill.  With a half wedge flip coming in, they're praying that they don't decelerate and dump it in the pond.  Assuming they make it on, they then two putt (the second putt being a four foot gimme).  The result being a bogey.

[Thomas Dai]

Another hole to add to the list of poor ones on recognised courses - the 16th at Royal Dornoch.

All the best.

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