Percentage Good/Great Designs as a determination of greatness!

[Coral_Ridge]

Selecting the greatest architect is certainly a subjective opinion, but if one can add some quantitative analysis into the discussion one might confirm their choice or come to another conclusion.  We all know that Donald Ross has a large number of golf courses on anyone's greatest list, i.e. GD, Golf Magazine, Golfweek, etc...  But what percentage of his courses are considered great, what percentage average, and what percentage weak or poor?  Ask yourself  the same about Dye, Fazio, Tillinghast, or RTJ,Sr, etc....  

Might one give enormous credit for having say, 75% of his courses in the very good to great golf category.  If an architect has only 10% of his courses in that category and another has 40%, who is the better all around architect.    

[TEPaul]

Coral Ridge:

Very fine point. I think it's interesting to look both at the best of what any architect did but also to look at the percentage of quality of all any of them did.

We're writing a book on William Flynn and we were thinking of trying to make the point that his career inventory might have been the highest in quality ever--percentage-wise. He may not have the best courses in the world--although Shinnecock is pretty danged high--but his overall quality throughout his career was very high.

Flynn's career in architecture spanned between 1909-1945. Ross's spanned between around 1900-1948. Not that different really. Ross built around 400 courses and Flynn 40-50.

In my opinion there are some real truths in those numbers when it comes to the quality of architecture, but of course us on here want to know why. It's pretty obvious to me. Both Ross and Flynn had real talent but one took his time with projects and the other didn't--or not always or even mostly.

It's no secret to me that the courses Ross is known to have put more time and effort into are much better than those he didn't--or frankly the courses he left to others to do to a large extent.

Who wins the prize for the highest quality ever percentage-wise? Well as Tom Doak said; "Obviously George Crump does but he went to bat just one time".

The best percentage-wise I'd sort of loosely list like this from what I know of them;

George Thomas
Flynn
Mackenzie--he seems to me to have perhaps taken architecture to the absolute pinnacle it's ever reached. Plus he was a very fast mover.
The group of Colt, Alison, Fowler et al--the so-called "heathland" architects. They all seemed to be tremendous talents.
Tillinghast
The group of Coore & Crenshaw, Doak, Hanse et al.
Perry Maxwell--maybe the best green builder ever.
Stanley Thompson
Raynor and Macdonald, Banks, Strong et al
Dye, RTJ, Dick Wilson
Hugh Wilson (Flynn)
Emmett, Travis
Ross
Fazios, Moorish, Weiskopf,
Steele, Kidd
Nicklaus
Rees Jones
Gordons
Palmer et al
Architects like Behr, Abercrombie, Park, Findlay, Lee, Strantz, Moran, Echenrode and many of the newer ones I don't know enough about. I'm sure I left a lot out but I can't think of everyone off the top of my head.

One timers like Crump, Fownes, Leeds I'd have to put in a separate category.

[Paul_Turner]

It's even harder to rate architects than courses!

The % of great courses is one way. But even that doesn't give us the true picture because it doesn't tell about the "value added" by the architect.  How do you compare an architect that only picks the big budget jobs to one that's prepared to take on a low budget muni and yet still get the most out of the land within those constraints.

To me the greatest architects bring something truly new and original to the field.  And the most interesting ones are those that are willing to travel, and design courses of all types, over all kinds of terrain.

The Dead Architects Survivor thread got to the root of all this  

[Mike Hendren]

Paul,

Only your contribution to our GCA foursome's bashing of an uppity Long Island fivesome in America's heartland earlier this year prevents me from once again holding you personally accountable for prematurely railroading Donald Ross out of the Dear Architect Survivor Series.  

You will be glad to know that I intend to play the Eden Course while in Scotland for the first time in October, and in tribute to you, will walk in after the Colt holes have been exhausted.

Kindest regards,

Mike Hendren

[Paul_Turner]

Mike

I plead not guilty, I believe it was Mr Cirba who nobbled Ross with the "Ross Rule"!

Glad you're playing the Eden, I don't think you'll have much problem identifying the original holes from the new.

We did play well as a foursome and half of the team was sozzled!

Cheers

Paul

[TEPaul]

Here's one of the most important architectural questions ever posed.

Which architect alive or dead showed the greatest architectural talent while completely sozzled? (great word!)!

Depending on the definition or degree of 'completely sozzled' the winners are in a virtual dead heat;

A.W. Tillinghast
Alister MacKenzie
Dick Wilson
And research may be showing a new entry--William Flynn!!

(an interesting fact that's emerging but might need a bit more checking); Howard Toomey's last words to William Flynn on his death bed;

"Bill, now you'll have to do ALL the drinking for the firm."

[Coral_Ridge]

Seth Raynor gets much admiration by the "Golfweek's Raters" and is mentioned in a number of Architectural Books.  Among them "The Golden Age of Golf Design" by Shackelford.  There he is mentioned right after discussion of Charles Blair Macdonald.  Most know the professional relationship between the two.  It appears that he designed under 40 golf courses ("The Golf Course" by Cornish and Whitten) and many are well thought of.  Along with Flynn, Raynor has appears to have a high percentage of good to great golf course designs.

[Paul_Turner]

Tom P

Much as I love the courses by HSC I can't claim the sozzled award for him, I reckon Tillie probably owns that one, but would love to know about Flynn and others.   Apparently, even today, Dr Mack's bad doings are still sensitive issues at Alwoodley, his first course!

Colt was a fine respectable gent, but thankfully not a boring, stiff chap (impossible really considering the early risks he took). And  I have a few articles where he shows a wry, self deprecating wit.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike, I too am glad you are going to see the Eden. I love that place. Just play up to #13 and you can walk in. #13 only because you can start to see the course disappear about that point. If you don't have that kind of time, or your tired, just quit at #11. Wouldn't you agree Paul?

BTW, Redanman is contemplating a trip to Scotland with his better half, and I told him that Renee would love the Eden. Make sure you impress that on him please.

And Mike, When you are there, I must insist you play the course as late in the evening as possible. While yo are walking in and you see the R&A lit-upin the distance, I swear you will start hearing voices, I mean it!

[Paul_Turner]

Tommy

You're a romantic, I can picture myself there and the scent of the sea...  Everyone would fall for the first 11 at the Eden.

[Brian_Ewen]

Tommy
As much as I agree with you , If you walked in from the 13th , wouldnt you miss the point of playing the Eden ? .