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Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #200 on: April 19, 2013, 04:56:56 PM »
I'll repeat, if its a problem at your club, take the initiative and get it fixed. 

All you are doing by getting on your soap box and expressing your "personal opinion" is telling other people how to do things at their clubs.  Even you can see the contradiction in your words in this thread.  Or perhaps not, as that would take an iota of intelligence.

Sven



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #201 on: April 19, 2013, 05:45:18 PM »
Really?  That's all you've got.

Its a big world Dave.  You need to take off the blinders and understand that your little theory of how things should be isn't going to work everywhere.

If that's all I've added to the thread, I'm satisfied.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #202 on: April 19, 2013, 05:57:51 PM »
Shake it off, take a lap.  You're starting to get overheated.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #203 on: April 19, 2013, 06:26:20 PM »
I don't appreciate idiotic comments from people who have no idea what they're talking about.  I don't need to take a lap.  I'd rather just run laps around you instead, which isn't terribly hard to do, truth be told. 

Don't waste your time.  Its a lot more enjoyable for the rest of us if you keep trying to run circles around Mucci.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #204 on: April 19, 2013, 06:28:12 PM »
All I've got is 4 decades of experience with caddies from every perspective.  I know what I'm talking about.   All you've got is a hard-on to pick a fight.  

You were a caddie and now you take caddies. Join the club. Is there some other perspective that we should be aware of? Additionally as far as you being one of the "BIG-THREE" of caddie takers on a board full of 1500 guys of which you might know 1/5 that seems a bit presumptuous. Any empirical evidence to support that claim?  :o
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 11:14:13 AM by Tim Martin »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #205 on: April 20, 2013, 08:07:58 AM »
This thread has had its moments of descending into a clustercuss, but has still been quite interesting to follow as an Aussie who has played a lot in the UK and a little bit (30 rounds at 16 courses - 33% with caddie) in the US.

The only caddie I have had outside the US is my old man caddying for me when I used to play in junior tournaments.

I like Jeff Warne's contributions on here, but thought this was absurd:

Quote
I'm supposed to tell my members, outings, and guests, why they can't have the caddies they requested and that they have to take a push cart (which would be impossible on our terrain

Few people on this board are likely familiar with Windsor GC or Springwood GC outside Sydney, a few more perhaps with Bonnie Doon. Older members at all three, and plenty of other really steep courses in Sydney, carry their own bag or push in around on a trolley. As far as I'm concerned, if you can play golf on it walking with caddies, you can get around with a trolley. It might be more physically demanding, but can be done. And that's before you look at battery-powered trolleys that require no effort to push.

As for the other matters at hand, I have a few little bits and pieces that the debate in the preceding 10 pages has compelled me to weigh-in on.

Master/servant
The master-servant aspect of the relationship between player and caddie is something I really struggled with the first few times I took a caddie, because it is so totally at odds with how I was raised. maybe because I know that, half a world away, I grew up in a situation where I'd have been a caddie at a US-style private club, not a member!

And so I would find myself trying to chat with the caddies as well as with my playing partners, even though none of them were chatting to the caddies much. It was a completely foreign experience.

But what I saw at a few places I have played was the member hosting me had a regular caddie looping for us, so they knew each other well, had a good rapport and the whole feeling was a lot more comfortable.

I fondly remember walking up the 9th at Lancaster with Rory C and our caddie both pissing themselves discussing the Aussie TV show Angry Boys (if you like to laugh, get it, or Summer Heights High, also by Chris Lilley). That whole day was like the six of us spending an afternoon together without any feeling of "us and them". The golfer's attitude obviously has a big role to play in how the dynamic is.

Cost/value
There's a good reason caddies aren't commonplace in the UK and Australia. When you're paying only AU$3000 or less a year for membership and play once a week, a caddie at AU$80 means you're paying more for caddies than you are to belong to the club.

So maybe caddies get only $30, say, for a loop, but that still means your caddie bill is 50% of your dues. The economics simply doesn't add up.

And I actually quite enjoy carrying my bag and making my own decisions, so even if there were kids happy to loop for $15 a round, I don't reckon I'd do it all the time.

Socialism
A controversial word, but that's what it feels like in some senses. In some places, it seems caddie programs are shoehorned in where there's not a demand for them and people of wildly varying talents get paid the same money for their work.

And a career caddie has no right to expect a job any more than any other person. Journalism has been through the wringer in recent years and I know plenty of people (and am one myself, twice) who watched their job disappear and had to accept that times change. My father-in-law spent his career in photographics and saw the industry for developing prints shrink to nothing in only a couple of years. he had to accept that and find a new line of business.

I don't see that caddies should be immune to those natural changes and evolution that affect the rest of us in our professions.

I appreciate the important place of caddying in the history of US golf, but I wonder if it has any significant widespread presence in its future - though at certain clubs it is perfectly natural, fits like a hand in a glove and will comfortably last for decades and centuries more.

Things change and maybe kids will come to enter the game through other avenues. Things evolve, life changes and I think the proponents of caddie golf need to amend how the system works if they want there to be glory days ahead for caddying in the game of golf.

Doubles
I feel bad for playing partners who get the shit end of the stick with a bloke who is carrying double. Tom Dunne got it bad out on Long Island with me one day when our caddie split his attention about 80/20 because I was playing really well and Tom had a slow start.

One upside of a bloke carrying double IMO is that they're not all over you so much.

Generally, the services I most value from a caddie don't involve carrying my bag - ball spotting off the tee, a little course management advice, tending the flag and reading the occasional tricky putt.

We had a forecaddie at The Renaissance Club and that service was pretty much perfect for what I desire from a caddie. my tiny carry bag and 12 clubs weigh about 7.5kg, so taking the weight off is no big deal.

Just some random views from an outsider.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 08:12:13 AM by Scott Warren »

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #206 on: April 20, 2013, 08:31:37 AM »
It seems to me there are a number of issues that have surfaced here:

1.  Most full service private clubs in major U.S. metro areas feel the need to offer a full-time caddie program, either as a service to their members, to keep up with the Joneses and the other posh clubs in town, as a charitable enterprise and summer employment for the youth of the area, or some combination of the three.  In order to do this, given how fat and lazy most Americans are, caddies are often required to be taken when they are available, regardless of whether one is walking or riding.  This adds a large "hidden" cost to the price of membership and while providing a service desired by some members forces others to take caddies that they wouldn't otherwise.

2.  The level of service offered by caddies varies greatly from a phenomenal guide who can shave a few strokes off your round and help add to a great day out to a hindrance to one's enjoyment of the game or worse, plain dead weight that gives advice that costs you strokes and slows down your game.

3.  It is generally acknowledge that single caddies are vastly superior to doubles, yet they are often not available, due to supply and/or greed, even at the best clubs or places like Bandon.

4.  Caddies at clubs in the states that don't have a mandatory caddie program are often only available if reserved in advance, or not at all.

5.  Pushcarts are often not allowed at many clubs, even if caddies aren't available.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 08:33:24 AM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #207 on: April 20, 2013, 08:58:42 AM »
Scott,
I thought you did a pretty good job summarizing the issues.
There is no one answer, and it is always case and club specific, which is why options are always the best.

I think you took my quote quiote a bit out of context of the discussion. As did at least one other who said push carts were a "simple" answer.

My quote was a response to a suggestion that professional caddies not be supplied during the week, so that their "spots" would be available for kids on the weekend. (i.e if only using single kids on weekends, it's gonna be hard to attract pros for weekdays) When I had questioned who would caddy during the week if only kids were employed for caddying.

I was not suggesting that push carts and walking were impossible or undesireable at all, in fact my members and I usually use this mode when travelling and playing courses abroad.
A push cart at our club is in fact impossible due to terrain,despite my many attempts to use one personally.
We have and are addressing many of these terrain issues we inherited from the original routing.

Telling a member or guest that they have to use a push cart when they specifically requested a caddie, would be as "absurd" as telling a member who wanted to walk that they had to ride, or telling a member who wanted to carry that they had to take a caddie (which is somewhat common due to attempting to support caddie programs)

The fact that you, your frends, and I would never think to take a caddie when not required, does not change the fact that certain people do in fact want (and in many cases need)  a caddie on a terrain challenged course, and my job is to honor their requests, and consider ALL situations, not just what suits me or what I know, like so many on here do in their discussion of many topics.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 09:14:01 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #208 on: April 20, 2013, 09:06:40 AM »
Absolutely agree that the ideal situation is the presence of options - walking and carrying, using a trolley, taking an caddie/forecaddie or riding if you absolutely must.

We pay a lot (even those of us paying comparatively little in Aus and the UK) to belong to golf clubs, so being forced to do X, Y or Z against your wishes in regards to getting around the course is less than ideal..
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 07:11:59 PM by Scott Warren »

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #209 on: April 21, 2013, 01:21:25 AM »
Jeff what terrain issues prevent the use of a trolley? I've played many a course where a mountain goat would be extremely comfortable but where a trolley works fine. I can only think you have 8' stone walls, rivers without bridges or shingle beaches to cross?

Cave Nil Vino

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators? New
« Reply #210 on: April 23, 2013, 06:19:59 AM »
.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 12:19:35 AM by astavrides »

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #211 on: April 23, 2013, 08:59:01 AM »
Frankly, the clubs around Chicago are among the very BEST when it comes to caddy programs ... and yet they ALLL send out doubles early even when they know full well they have a surplus of caddies -- forcing kids pick their ass in the shack for hours unnecessarily.    

This statement is flat out wrong.  The only misinformation in this thread is coming from you.

I'd be happy to debate actual practices with you, but I won't waste my time if all you're going to do is throw out platitudes and insults.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #212 on: April 23, 2013, 09:32:40 AM »
Dave:

You don't know me, you don't know my base of knowledge and on those fronts you don't know what you're talking about.

I have not once suggested what others should do at their clubs.  I've suggested that what should be done at any club is what works best for that membership, which is different from how you described my statements.  If that means they want doubles, or singles, or only kids under 18, or only pushcarts, that is up to the club.  What I did note is that not every club in Chicago sends out senior caddies as doubles to the detriment of the young kids waiting in the shack.  That is fact.

But thank you for thinking I'm a young man.  George Freeman will tell you otherwise, as he thinks I'm old enough to be his Dad.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #213 on: April 23, 2013, 12:07:24 PM »
All other things being equal, I generally prefer to take a single, for the reasons Dave mentions.  But the practical reality at my club is that we don't have the kind of program where kids show up in the summer to loop, and so we have a (pretty small) group of guys who are out there trying to make a living, usually by supplementing the income they earn elsewhere.  None of them is your typical pro jock; instead, each is a good, solid caddy who knows a bunch of members, has a good attitude, works hard.  Having gotten to know most of them, and considering that a lot of the job is physical labor (double-bagging is not easy IMHO), I'm more than happy to have them double-bag so they can make it worth their time.  [And when you think about their hourly wage, you need to consider more than just the time you spent on the course.]

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #214 on: April 23, 2013, 12:40:53 PM »
From a non-Chicagoan,you guys don't appreciate how good you've got it.You're arguing the merits of a single bag carrier versus a double while most of us play at places that haven't seen a caddie since JFK was President.

I doubt if I'd take a caddie every round,but I'd certainly like to have the option--single or double.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #215 on: April 23, 2013, 12:42:55 PM »
JM,

You wouldn't have the option, you'd have to take one every time if they were available whether you were walking or riding.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #216 on: April 23, 2013, 01:04:58 PM »
JM,

You wouldn't have the option, you'd have to take one every time if they were available whether you were walking or riding.


Jud:

That, too, is also not the case everywhere in Chicago.

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #217 on: April 23, 2013, 01:37:15 PM »
Jud;  Many clubs in Chicago do not require cart riders to take a caddy. To my knowledge,those that that have a caddy program  require one, if available, for walkers.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #218 on: April 23, 2013, 02:50:33 PM »
Many do if available, don't they?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #219 on: April 23, 2013, 02:59:29 PM »
Some require runners wiith carts but not nearly as prevalent as 25 years ago.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #220 on: April 23, 2013, 03:19:56 PM »
Even at some Evans Scholar stalwart clubs here in town, there are certain members who get away with riding in a cart without a forecaddie, even when there are kids waiting in the shack.  I personally find that irritating, but many others aren't as put off as I am.  Sometimes it's an old-guy rule, where they don't want to spend the extra money and nobody wants to argue with them.  Sometimes it's an irritating member that the starter just winks at and lets it slide.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #221 on: April 23, 2013, 03:30:13 PM »
I'm in no way trying to be an advocate for cheapskate members who try to skirt the rules, I just thought that required caddies meant required in my experience.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #222 on: April 23, 2013, 07:47:07 PM »
Gentlemen,

The quintessential caddy plying his trade!  Could well be, in years to come, one nearby Scot scraping a penny or twa thegither! Paying for his sins of yesteryear!




Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Sean Heenan

Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #223 on: April 23, 2013, 07:49:23 PM »
I'm in no way trying to be an advocate for cheapskate members who try to skirt the rules, I just thought that required caddies meant required in my experience.

Lets keep this post going longer, this has now turned into a car wreck, I love it when the name calling of continues....."cheapskate", not even sure what to say to that!  I guess the only correct ideas are agreeing with your point of view no matter what it is!

And if you don't agree with the elite that post on this board you are of not worthy of walking on a course that cost $0 or $100,000 +, come to think of it everyone with enough money to join a club should give the rest of there money to the Evans or my favorite charity because I know how to best spend everyone's money and by the way I feal everyone should ride saga ways and take a left handed caddie!

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #224 on: April 23, 2013, 08:07:54 PM »
Sean,

What would you call a member who joined a club where caddies are required to be taken every time out who didn't take one?  If he preferred to play the local public goat track with the rest of the riff raff and save his pennies for spam and malt liquor perhaps he should have read the member handbook before joining imperialist capitalist pig golf and country club.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 08:14:17 PM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak