Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?

[corey miller]

David

People ask for the same caddie because they already know the person and have a relationship and a comfort level, I am not sure it has anything to do with single or double bag.

I played in a Macdonald Cup event prior to the official opening of the course.  For some reason  it was determined that we could not use the same caddie each day (really ridiculous rule) so I probably had four or five caddies over five days.  Some were double (the rounds that were not part of the event) some were single. 

Were I to return I would gladly accept (or request) any of the guys again.  Though I would prefer a single, I would also take them as doubles as I do believe if they are making the walk they deserve to make as much as possible.  Even with these highly skilled guys you can't compare the "service" between single and double.

I did find the effort and skill level of the Bandon caddies to be exceptional.  No complaints, not part of the problem IMO

[David Botimer]

Corey,

The economics alluded to by David simply don't pan out at Bandon.  I'd guess single bagging results in about a 5-10% pay increase per bag.  It could be a little more, but certainly not 30+%.

[David Ober]

Corey,

As I alluded above, I too prefer the single bag experience as I enjoy that heightened sense of service.  But the economics alluded to by David simply don't pan out at Bandon.  I'd guess single bagging results in about a 5-10% pay increase per bag.  It could be a little more, but certainly not 30+%.

What's the going rate at Bandon for a single loop and a double?

[David Botimer]

Corey,

As I alluded above, I too prefer the single bag experience as I enjoy that heightened sense of service.  But the economics alluded to by David simply don't pan out at Bandon.  I'd guess single bagging results in about a 5-10% pay increase per bag.  It could be a little more, but certainly not 30+%.

What's the going rate at Bandon for a single loop and a double?

[David Ober]

Corey,

As I alluded above, I too prefer the single bag experience as I enjoy that heightened sense of service.  But the economics alluded to by David simply don't pan out at Bandon.  I'd guess single bagging results in about a 5-10% pay increase per bag.  It could be a little more, but certainly not 30+%.

What's the going rate at Bandon for a single loop and a double?

I just checked the website (I'm not there now so wasn't sure how they stated fees on the website).  It said "The amount of any fee is the sole discretion of the player. Our expectation is that a caddie's performance will exceed your expectations and warrant at least the average fee".  I'm not trying to be vague.  I believe when you meet a caddie supervisor at the course first day they will suggest $80-100 per bag.  There is no stated difference between single and double.

So am I to understand that a caddie double looping should get $160 to $200? Exactly double the rate if he were singling?

[Joe Bentham]

Comparing a caddie who is doubling to a caddie carrying a single bag is a joke. Just stop defending it. A caddie who is doubling is, absolutely, providing a service -- a valuable one even, but he simply cannot do even close to as good a job as the same caddie singling. Too much hurrying and not enough time taken over reads or in short discussion or strategy.

99% of the time less is more in regards to caddie/player discussion on shots/reads.  We are talking about resort/leisure rounds here, not the US open.  4 golfers and two double bag caddies is the perfect golf experience.  4 golfers and 4 caddies is a rodeo.   

[Sean_A]

Let me get this straight.  Are people suggesting that a caddie can do just as good a job with two players as he can with one?  Furthermore, are people suggesting a double looper should be paid the same as if it were two single loops?  If so, take a pause and give this some thought.  There can only be one correct answer and anyone being honest with himself will find a way to that correct answer.  As Pat states, any time a service is required there is a greater chance that service will not be as good as it could be.

Ciao

 

[Brent Hutto]

Let me get this straight.  Are people suggesting that a caddie can do just as good a job with two players as he can with one?  Furthermore, are people suggesting a double looper should be paid the same as if it were two single loops?  If so, take a pause and give this some thought.  There can only be one correct answer and anyone being honest with himself will find a way to that correct answer.  As Pat states, any time a service is required there is a greater chance that service will not be as good as it could be.

Yes, all that is being claimed. And there's more!

Kris also claims that if two players being double-looped do not recieve the same quality service as having their own caddie it's because the players aren't doing their part or don't know what they're supposed to be doing to help the caddie out.

Talk about your victim blaming...

[Chuck Glowacki]

as a caddie, I prefer singles, as a provider I prefer doubles

[Kris Shreiner]

Brent ,

NEVER SAID THAT. Players that have basic common sense and understand how to work with a caddie when it is a double-bag situation will HELP that caddie deliver a solid experience if said caddie is doing a quality job.

NO WAY that a double caddie can give EACH player the EXACT level of service that two individual, single caddies could. But for the players I've worked for in the 35 plus years I've been around the game looping, that understand there's a human being, not a machine involved, the adjustment hasn't been a problem. If the caddie does a solid job and the round goes fairly well...what's wrong?

HH,

Sorry you're regressing. Golf isn't a track meet...it's a WALKING game at its best. Most of us don't play speed golf. I'm a fast player, but I don't delight in blazing around a golf course. Why?

I'm going to retire from this thread along with Archie. For the record, I've done a hell of a lot more in my life than just caddie, so I don't have the blinders on here. If you reflect on what those who have spent the MOST time in the arena are saying...the potshots from those that haven't don't carry much weight. Caddie golf has many forms...and even at that...it's not for everybody. We can ALL agree on that.

Cheers,
Kris

[SL_Solow]

My ethereal friend; enough of the reductio ad absurdum ( I know the Ghost is a sucker for Latin).  There is no doubt that all things being relatively equal, 2 single caddies provide a superior experience to a double caddy.  I suspect your "adversary" will concede that point.  However, I  further suggest that, in your zeal to prove the obvious, you overstate the evils of double bagging.  A good, motivated double caddy can provide an excellent experience.  If the players are sympathetic and willing to chip in a little, like rake an occasional bunker (admit it, you have done so as have I and we didn't really mind) it makes things go a little quicker and easier.  So if your point is that 2 good singles are better than a double, you prevail.  But it does not follow that a good double cannot help you enjoy a great day of golf.  Of course that is even easier at your home course where you don't need much help.

[Tim Martin]

My ethereal friend; enough of the reductio ad absurdum ( I know the Ghost is a sucker for Latin).  There is no doubt that all things being relatively equal, 2 single caddies provide a superior experience to a double caddy.  I suspect your "adversary" will concede that point.  However, I  further suggest that, in your zeal to prove the obvious, you overstate the evils of double bagging.  A good, motivated double caddy can provide an excellent experience.  If the players are sympathetic and willing to chip in a little, like rake an occasional bunker (admit it, you have done so as have I and we didn't really mind) it makes things go a little quicker and easier.  So if your point is that 2 good singles are better than a double, you prevail.  But it does not follow that a good double cannot help you enjoy a great day of golf.  Of course that is even easier at your home course where you don't need much help.

Shelly - The Ghost won't concede anything. It's just not in the Ghost's DNA. I believe that because the Ghost respects you the Ghost's response will be tempered but unwavering nonetheless. By the way do you know if he prefers Spirit or Ghost?

[jeffwarne]

Shivas,
Where do caddies come from when school's in session, but CEO's still want to play?

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

At my first GCA (Philly area) off season "cabin fever" get togethers at Seaview I asked the group, over beers, how many had spent time caddying. Almost 3/4 of os threw up our hands, myself included.

Caddies aren't  just a bunch of alcoholic ne'er-do-wells, they are us!

That being said I walk and carry 99% of my rounds and where I am required to take a caddy I often find myself at odds with their advise.

 Of the clubs where I am forced to take a a caddy PVGC has provided the most annoying and worst advise while Baltusurol's heavily Caribbean staff do better by my measure.

[Jud_T]

Another issue that I'm not sure has been mentioned is often even if you request singles at a place with a full time caddie program you usually end up with a double, either because there aren't enough bodies or everyone wants to double and they still expect essentially the same tip as if they were a single.  This even happened to me at Bandon. 

[David Botimer]

Bandon has built a great caddie program by attracting caddies from all over the country and beyond who want to work hard.  Turn it into a single bag only program and you'd lose a lot of great caddies.  Would singling everyone and chasing away those who actually want to make a decent income result in better caddie programs?  In the case of Bandon absolutely not. 

[Rich Goodale]

Shivas,
Where do caddies come from when school's in session, but CEO's still want to play?

They don't.  CEOs carry their own damn bags or take pull carts.  I once saw Charles Schwab carrying his own at Olympic for precisely this reason.  It gave me a hard on.

Correctemundo, Shivaso

If the caddie lovers want to promote double-bagging, why not use the Doublemint Gum twins as a paradigm--two hot teenage girls sharing your bag?  Far more interesting than having one alcoholic 50-something trying to serve you and the other guy who is always on the other side of the fairway and doesn't know his 5-iron from a hole in the ground and then spitting on your shoes when you only tip him $50 for the service......

My vote is for the elevator operators (RIP)--at least they knew what they were doing, and got a quarter every time they took you up or down.....

Ricardomundo

[Kris Shreiner]

Rich,

You need to out a liitle more. Going up?


Cheers,
Kris

[Jud_T]

Bandon has built a great caddie program by attracting caddies from all over the country and beyond who want to work hard.  Turn it into a single bag only program and you'd lose a lot of great caddies.  Would singling everyone and chasing away those who actually want to make a decent income result in better caddie programs?  In the case of Bandon absolutely not.  

David,

Do you think a Double deserves $100/bag regardless how good he/she is?  That works out to about $100,000/yr., mostly tax-free (assuming he gets out twice/day, 5 days a week, which may be possible at a place like Bandon).  Would you rather carry a single for $100 or a double for $120?  Would you rather pay $100 for a single or $60 for 1/2 a double?

[Kevin Lynch]

My ethereal friend; enough of the reductio ad absurdum ( I know the Ghost is a sucker for Latin).  There is no doubt that all things being relatively equal, 2 single caddies provide a superior experience to a double caddy.  I suspect your "adversary" will concede that point.  However, I  further suggest that, in your zeal to prove the obvious, you overstate the evils of double bagging.  A good, motivated double caddy can provide an excellent experience.  If the players are sympathetic and willing to chip in a little, like rake an occasional bunker (admit it, you have done so as have I and we didn't really mind) it makes things go a little quicker and easier.  So if your point is that 2 good singles are better than a double, you prevail.  But it does not follow that a good double cannot help you enjoy a great day of golf.  Of course that is even easier at your home course where you don't need much help.

SL -
I think everyone would be much more conciliatory if the pricing reflected the reality you mention above.

Both golfers and caddies understand there is an inevitable decline in service on a double-bag.  So why is there "per bag" pricing? We're hiring a caddy, not a bag.  I understand and empathize that a career caddie needs the doubles to make it feasible. But does it have to be double pricing?  What's wrong with a system of $80 for a single, $120-140 for a double?

My god, make it $159.50 for the double, but at least give some acknowledgement that you realize the service will be less.  The 2x pricing simply offends my common sense as a CPA.

I don't know how many resorts offer a discount for the double, but every club I've been to in the US sticks to this ridiculous "per bag" system.  Haven't found one yet that has acknowledged what everyone seems to agree upon.

El Gringo - is it different over there? You seemed shocked by the notion that a double bag receives 2x the fee, so I'm wondering if the ridiculous pricing is a US custom.

[Tim Martin]

In response to the suggestion that someone receive less per bag when carrying doubles I have never heard of it in practice. I don't remember the last time I had a single caddie. I would think that caddie programs would want to avoid any notion that their double bag service is in any way inferior to their single bag service by dropping the per bag price. That ain't happening.

[Brent Hutto]

Well for what it's worth, the last time I play the Ocean Course at Kiawah the caddies were double-bagging in the morning round (four golfers all walking, two caddies). I gave what I considered a fairly generous gratuity to the one assigned to myself and Rob Miller.

When I went back out for my afternoon round I was playing a single. Different caddie and of course he was single-bagging. I gave him 20 bucks more than I had the morning guys because I figured a) he was making less total out of the loop and b) I was getting full service. As it turns out, we played in about 2:45 by ourselves in the afternoon so he per-hour rate was fine. But still less total money at the end of the day than if I'd been another double for him.

[Kevin Lynch]

In response to the suggestion that someone receive less per bag when carrying doubles I have never heard of it in practice. I don't remember the last time I had a single caddie. I would think that caddie programs would want to avoid any notion that their double bag service is in any way inferior to their single bag service by dropping the price. That ain't happening.

And isn't that shocking to you?  

I appreciate that a double caddy is going to be working harder, and I'm usually the guy dragging the rake or getting my own divot out of habit. But there's no way a double bag is doing 2x as much as a single.  Again, I don't mind having doubles when I play and gladly accept the limitations. But the pricing model just stuns me.

[Brent Hutto]

Kevin,

If it makes you feel any better, think of double-bagging as the norm. No caddie in this day and age has any desire to carry single bag for "single" pay. The entire profession is based on the double bag.

So the good news is if you luck into a single-bagging situation they don't make you pay EXTRA for the privilege. Except of course for those suckers among us who still chip it a bit extra for the single...

[Kris Shreiner]

Brent,

Despite wishing to close on this thread personally, I can't let certain comments go unaddressed when so many don't know the reality. Stating that the double-bag scenario is the foundation of caddie golf today is inaccurate. Most every facility offering caddies in the U.K has single caddies offering the service in the main. It is rare to see a double caddie on a Scottish golf course from my experience.

Many stateside clubs also have a heavy, single caddie-based model.  Most Evans caddie programs, and many others, favor singles. The career caddie folks generally double. It's economics. That said, many older caddies love the single bag, and class caddie clubs AND their caddies often adopt the singles mantra during the slower shoulder seasons to keep everybody working. Again common sense guides them, not some uptight concerns about what the caddie might NOT be doing.

Internationally, in countries such as India and Argentina, and others here on GCA with experience could speak to this as well, singles are often the main way it is done. The cart-ball Asian model, with the gals each handling a cart with two players, offers another scenario.

There are many ways caddie golf is provided. The double-bag for life assertion is just one of them. It does NOT define the entire enterprise. Not even close.

Cheers,
Kris