[jeffwarne]

I normally try to stay out of these caddie battles,and am  a fan of the UK/Irish model of choice of trolley, carry, or caddie.
I'm not a fan of carts as an alternative to caddies (and I would give the cart away for free to a medically disabled or age appropriate rider, on the condition that they either take or look after the caddie in their group)

I  must say while I understand some of the points Peper was so awkwardly trying to make, that I found much of the article, and certainly the tone, quite offensive.
Not sure where Peper thinks these schoolkid caddies are going to come from weekdays in April, May September, or October.
The fact is at a small amount of certain clubs, caddies are desired and expected. Caddies have to be provided for those that want them  when the kids are unavailable.
Of course we all like to support Evans Scholarship programs and the like, but denying the need for post school age caddies is completely unrealistic, and to hold it against the more mature caddy who's trying to pay his bills like anyone else is well, just wrong. They are an integral part of any caddie program through a majority of the season and can't just go away because school's out and you want a 15 year old bag carrier. I'd say he simply hasn't thought about it, but it certainly comes off smug.


Many posters bring up legitimate issues regarding caddies, and as I stated I'm not a fan of them being mandatory, but I understand why many places(including us, but I'm working on it) have the mandatory policy to keep caddies around.
 Even though it's difficult, it seems that if caddies weren't mandatory, and carts were not allowed as a substitute, that the golf staff could soon enough determine what the actual demand is, and offer the appropriate amount of caddies accordingly.
 It's something I wrestle with daily, but our members aren't sensitive to the cumulative caddie fees of a season, and we get almost no requests to NOT take a caddie . My guess is there are some places where it becomes a real potential member eliminating issue.

Comparing caddies to a rest room attendant is unduly harsh , it's amazing a former caddie (or anyone of any decency) would use that analogy.
 It's great that George got to go to Scotland, and his frugality   was further enhanced while he was there.
Meanwhile there are plenty of players who request and demand the use of caddies, and those caddies have to make a living, and last I checked, a caddie can't pay his rent in The Hamptons (or anywhere else) on $38/day. (and that assumes they get out every day, which they don't) Do you think George knows what minimum wage is? throw in the obligatory hour on the range and lunch at the turn(to say nothing of caddieshack waiting time), and they are well below that at $38. George may zip around in his cart in 3 hours, but that's not what's happening at a destination high end course with a fourball with knee high fescue, particularly when the course is not crowded and guests are enjoying their relaxed day in a leisurely manner.

Ironically, I share many of Brent and Mike Sweeney's opinions on this subject, but I still find this article offensive and poorly thought out.
Not sure that matters though, as I'm pretty sure GP has a similar opinion of golf pros.

[Mike Sweeney]

I've never played golf overseas, but it wouldn't be fun to guess where to hit the ball when facing a blind shot only to find out that you guessed wrong and ended up in deep rough or a hazard, especially if it's the only time you might get to play the course. I could laugh it off once or twice, but I'm not sure it would be so amusing if it happened much more than that. How does that not make sense?

Nate,

I have never played Merion Golf Club without a member. All the members I know, know the course very well. They can and do give advice to their guest, so I just don't see this as a fair comparison with unescorted rounds overseas. Like many here, when I played Cypress Point it was in an unescorted foursome. For lots and lots of reasons, caddies are needed for those rounds.

I have probably hosted 50+ guys here and (and one girl  ) at Yale over the years. The blind shots at Yale outnumber Merion and many of the holes are played through trees similar to Pine Valley, so it is typically hard to see future holes like you can at Merion. The starters at Yale try to get visitors teamed up with regulars when they can, similar to overseas. I will acknowledge that rounds are longer at Yale, but that is also due to its status as a university course with lots of visitors.

I am not asking Merion Golf Club to change their policy for caddies. It is a special place in golf, but it is not typical in the world of golf.

One of my cousin's husband caddied at Merion during some slow months for his business during the recession, so I understand why you are taking this personally. However, it is a golf conversation, not a Merion Golf Club discussion.

George Peper expressed a consumer choice like we all make dozens of times per week. Tomorrow morning, I will take the subway to work in NYC. It does not mean that I have something against Pakistani cab drivers, but many here would argue that I should. 

[Joel Zuckerman]

One aspect of this debate has not been touched on. The escalating price of caddies.
When I joined my club seven years ago, the going rate for a caddy was $60, tip included. Then the rate was 65, 70, 75, and now $80. It's a little disconcerting that the rate has gone up about 30% over the seven years, but my own income has probably gone down the same amount!

[Jason Connor]

There are few things I love more than hitting a nice approach shot then walking 120 or 180 yards with nothing but a putter.

But the cost of caddies at most places (when I rarely play them) just doesn't make a caddy worth it to me.

Given the number of retired guys who are starters or marshall for little or no pay and just playing privileges and for getting away from their wives and onto the golf course, I wish we'd see more 4-bag carts driven by retirees to facilitate walking. 

[Joel Zuckerman]

Given the number of retired guys who are starters or marshall for little or no pay and just playing privileges and for getting away from their wives and onto the golf course, I wish we'd see more 4-bag carts driven by retirees to facilitate walking. 

Fabulous thought, but unlikely to ever be SOP.  Talk about a win-win:  How much more palatable would it be to fork over just $20 instead of $80 for the privilege of walking unencumbered, and for the cart driver, pocketing $80 in cash for tooling around with the walking foursome in a golf cart, all the while reading a paperback or the newspaper while waiting on the tee, while they were putting etc, would be "found money."

[archie_struthers]

 


It's disheartening to see some of the disdain for loopers on this thread. As previously posted it seems rooted in economics more than anywhere else. No doubt the cost is prohibitive at your home club , at double or triple the cost of a golf cart.  Yet castigating all who work as caddies is surely not fair. 

I would ask suggest that a round with an exceptional caddy , who does his job and keeps quiet when he or she should , is quite enjoyable and a special treat for many. For those who can afford it on a regular basis you are blessed.

I refer back to a long dormant post where we really debated the merits and value of a caddy program. I proffered that a fore caddy seemed to fit the American golf model rather well , particularly if the rate was reasonable.  The caddy could  enhance pace of play, fill divots rake traps etc etc and properly schooled be a real benefit to the club.  Even someone carrying his own bag could employ this service, as the fore caddy could move their bag on cut overs and find errant tee shots for all.   

As one who benefited greatly from my experiences as a caddy , I can't imagine the disdain so,many here have for the art. 

[Jud_T]

Archie,

For the most part it's not disdain, it's simple economics.  Most of us don't have $100 for a greens fee these days, not to mention a spare Benjamin for a caddie.  I love playing with caddies, particularly given my aging back and knees, but a motorized trolley pays for itself in half a season.  It just ain't the same as when you threw the neighborhood kid a few bucks to tote your bag.  Aside from playing in a big money match or calcutta tournament as a guest with a looper who can legitimately save you a stroke or two, there's simply no value added economic justification for paying $80-$100 a bag for the vast majority of players.  It's become a nice antiquated luxury item for a niche market.  When you're playing a $2 Nassau, paying $80 for a caddie is simply charity, and personally I prefer to choose my own charities privately than to be told by the company where to contribute.  If you're playing for a dollar a yard it's another matter altogether.

[Tim Martin]

Disappointing perspective indeed.

The costs appear to be the problem. I'd agree if all you are getting from your caddy is yardages and Bullshit reads.

The last paragraph is indeed the saddest of all.

It's not the money. It's the RECIPIENT of the money.  I enjoy paying kids. I do not enjoy paying some alcoholic ne'er do well who has taken over what should be a child's gateway into the work world. It's the same reason I REFUSE to tip the guy who flies by my house every morning at 6:15 and hurls a newspaper out of his beat-up station wagon when he has the gall to stick a Christmas tip envelope into my newspaper.  That should be a kid on a bike.  

Ivory Tower critic is certainly an appropriate moniker. Any real insight into the lives and responsibilities of those you belittle and have such disdain for? I have the same husband and wife who have delivered my morning paper for the last ten years. They have five kids and two ailing parents that live with them and both work full time jobs besides the paper duty. Jeez I guess I shouldn't tip them any more after reading your post. I won't even bother to get into the caddie argument as we have done that dance before.

[Brent Hutto]

These threads always bring out the desire of some to be waited upon hand and foot like a rich man except somehow to have it done for a fraction of a living wage. And if necessary, paper it over with "helping a kid get started" or giving a retiree a chance to work for free golf. Wow.

When I was a "kid" I hardly knew the game of golf existed. The way for young people in my stratum to "get started" was mowing lawns. Ten bucks for a big job that took 2+ hours, maybe five bucks for one I could get done in an hour and half.

Geez I wish I could get my lawn done today for five or ten dollar. I have to pay $50/week for a professional service to keep the yard in good shape. But I don't try to cast around for a way to get by for a quarter that amount by "helping" some young person willing to work cheaply.

[archie_struthers]

 

Jud , , I  agree its mostly economics, no worries. I totally get  and made it quite clear in all my previous posts. Having a caddy on those special rounds is a treat , no doubt.

However , I certainly feel that there is more than a little negativity that is misplaced here. Most of us play at clubs that allow walking , or cart riding sans caddies, so why the vitriol.  I think  the clubs that maintain caddy programs should be  applauded , as many of us would have never played golf if we weren't able to ,are a few quid looping. If caddies are bad at premier clubs , its managements fault , as they are certainly well paid these days.  Those that don't cut it should be quickly released.  

Like we discussed , there are lots of ways to enjoy golf, so lets not be quick to dismiss a nice service that some can afford and appreciate. We all can't go to the best restaurants or drive a fancy BMW , and that's just the way it is.

[V. Kmetz]

I haven't wished to give this thread more oxygen, but this exchange broke my resolve.

Given the number of retired guys who are starters or marshall for little or no pay and just playing privileges and for getting away from their wives and onto the golf course, I wish we'd see more 4-bag carts driven by retirees to facilitate walking.  

Fabulous thought, but unlikely to ever be SOP.  Talk about a win-win:  How much more palatable would it be to fork over just $20 instead of $80 for the privilege of walking unencumbered, and for the cart driver, pocketing $80 in cash for tooling around with the walking foursome in a golf cart, all the while reading a paperback or the newspaper while waiting on the tee, while they were putting etc, would be "found money."

That is, until the shots of the players in the group comprise the corner points of a 300 sq yard perimeter.  A is long down the middle, B is 30 yards behind him, C has sliced 30 yards in the right rough and D has hit a quick short grounding hook that is 10 yards in the short left rough...which only happens like, every third hole...on JUST the tee shots.  

And there's "Old Sam" reading his newspaper, being called to and fro, players sometimes taking bags off and humping themselves to the places carts, even Sam's, can't go...Change of club? Sorry, he's roaring away to player C on the right.  But wait, his hearing aid happened to be turned "On" (his wife was visiting relatives that day), he hears you and does a long, slow, cautious spin to return...the wind has died down, you decide to keep both 7 and 8 iron, so he doesn't have to be called back...you lay the other in a towel so it doesn't touch the dewy, irrigated, or muddy turf...wait, he has your towel...Tot late, he's just getting to C who picks a club, stands over the ball, then looks up at you and shouts, "Who's away?".  The group back up at the tee box is egged on by their "park bench retiree" who points to the Links mag story he's reading..."Shooting at Golf Course: Faster Pace or Tighter Gun-Control Restrictions?"

Please, those of you who agree with Peper, and who don't like Mandatory Caddies policies (cost, interference, service, D-I-Y preferences, home course) just call for the elimination of Caddies, because so many of the classified, categorized programs I've heard here are going to ruin it for both you and your debate opponents. Not just this "retiree" scheme... The "young lad" types can't service but 20-30% of the golfing days and are the least experienced at the actual trade to be any sort of "aid" for you at all, without mandatory caddies, there will rarely be enough for those who want or don't mind taking and paying for caddies, and who need them to take care of those thiings they cannot do consistently: finding the ball, raking bunkers. For the few that can expect to be sent out often under this policy, there will be competition among the handful that want or feel they need caddies and nothing is so deleterious to the atmosphere of the club than any number of members feeling one group is being given preferential treatment by the administration of club policy.

If you don't like or prefer or find a needlessness for caddying, just say so and call for their elimination.  The price isn't going down whether the 30% increases over the last seven years, or Peper's scale of $5 = $38 really mean anything, so don't attempt to water-down the service by lowering its cost or who provides it.  Either you want em or you don't, no matter whether they are free or not.  Because if you would utilize them if they were free or part of your dues structure, like employees, then all you're talking about is trying to engineer the market.  Please go to your cable company or oil company and do it there, before you come ambling down the caddie yard.

While I don't have empirical numbers about caddying clubs total, anecdotally the concentration in select American districts is enormous (Met, Boston, Philly, Chicago, LA, South Florida, etc) but nationwide or world wide, I'd be amazed if more than 15% of private clubs have caddies at all.  In my extensive experience in this Met area, the clubs that do not have mandatory policies contain the worst caddies that have been referenced here.  There's nothing to keep a better caddie there, income is less consistent and likely reduced on a gross basis.  Why wouldn't you go to one that does mandate the use of caddies at broad hours of the day (Open to 3pm).

Oh and as to the young lads once more, I was a caddiemaster for 16 years.  You folks who are partial to this element should know that the ratio of parents treating the local course as "day care" as opposed to "healthy summer employment" is about 80/20.  There is nothing worse for the outside environment of a member's private golf club, to which the Pro and the Caddiemaster are charged to maintain, than 12-20 teenagers sitting on a bench because play is not robust that day.  


cheers

vk

[Jason Thurman]

I don't hold any vitriol toward career caddies. I'm not angry at them.

I do think it's important to protect opportunities for young people to work. Caddying is good work for a teenager. They're outside, getting a bit of exercise, learning a bit about customer service, and providing a service at a sustainable rate that helps to preserve golf as a walking game. The young caddies that I've met are good kids with firm handshakes. I'm happy to be a member of one of the top Evans Scholar clubs in the state of Ohio, and I think our caddy program is to the mutual benefit of the club and the kids. I also like that I can walk in the evenings without a cart or caddie if I want a little solitude, want to just practice a bit, or just feel like spending less money. Caddies are still a luxury for me, even when they're half the cost of a career caddie at a resort or high-end private.

It's true that a lot of adult caddies are guys who are working hard to pay their bills and feed their kids, and I appreciate that. However, those guys are also qualified to do a LOT of other jobs. The same isn't true for teenagers, who have pretty limited work options. Again, I think protecting the opportunity for young people to do certain jobs in certain industries is important.

It's also true that a lot of clubs or resorts prefer adult caddies and consider the quality of their service better. I don't necessarily disagree, but I often find the value is worse. It's silly that I pay $90 at a place like Pebble Beach for a double-bagging caddie who gives me wrong reads that I didn't ask for while it only costs me $35 at my home course for a kid who stays within 5 yards of me the entire round and gives me exactly the information I want from him.

In the end, all I want is value. Sometimes value is a Cadillac that's fun to drive and more comfortable than my living room. Sometimes it's a Ford that gets good gas mileage and lasts 15 years. I'm happy with either of those options. But if I get stuck with a Cadillac that costs twice what the Ford costs, makes ceaseless noise, and takes two minutes to start every other time I turn the ignition, then I'm a lot less likely to visit that dealership in the future.

[Sean_A]

VK

Maybe I got the wrong impression, but I don't think anybody is calling for caddies to be eliminated.  I certainly don't wish to see that happen.  There are plenty of places to play if I or anybody else doesn't want to pay for a caddie.  To be honest, the situation of mandatory caddies rarely arises for me so I am indifferent if anything.  I only said my preference is for kid bag carries.  This is in the main because I don't really want paid advice on playing golf.  I treat golf very much as a game and don't much see the point of taking away the brain/guesswork while playing.

Ciao

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Good caddies are nice, but they are a luxury item.

+1

+2

[Joel Zuckerman]

VK--First, I greatly enjoyed your fond reminiscence of Pete the Caddy on an earlier page of this thread, and certainly appreciate your passion for the art of caddying.

One simple point I will make in regards to "Old Sam."  Speaking only for myself, to me 80--85% of a caddy's value is carrying the bag allowing me to walk unencumbered.  (Precisely the reason I will often latch my golf bag to my buddy's cart, and walk the GC while he rides.)  The other 15--20% is cleaning the ball, a little conversation, maybe spotting the occasional errant shot..but the real value to me is just the walk sans bag.  That's why I thought Jason Conner made a good point, an idea that makes some sense at the right time and place.

[Tim Martin]

Disappointing perspective indeed.

The costs appear to be the problem. I'd agree if all you are getting from your caddy is yardages and Bullshit reads.

The last paragraph is indeed the saddest of all.

It's not the money. It's the RECIPIENT of the money.  I enjoy paying kids. I do not enjoy paying some alcoholic ne'er do well who has taken over what should be a child's gateway into the work world. It's the same reason I REFUSE to tip the guy who flies by my house every morning at 6:15 and hurls a newspaper out of his beat-up station wagon when he has the gall to stick a Christmas tip envelope into my newspaper.  That should be a kid on a bike.  

Ivory Tower critic is certainly an appropriate moniker. Any real insight into the lives and responsibilities of those you belittle and have such disdain for? I have the same husband and wife who have delivered my morning paper for the last ten years. They have five kids and two ailing parents that live with them and both work full time jobs besides the paper duty. Jeez I guess I shouldn't tip them any more after reading your post. I won't even bother to get into the caddie argument as we have done that dance before.

Uh, yeah, Tim, I actually DO have real insight into the lives and respoinsbilities of those who have stolen childrens' jobs.  I actually WAS a paperboy.  I actually WAS a caddy.  I appreciated those jobs as a kid as a way to make a little money so I could have a few bucks in my pocket as a kid.   It really doesn't matter that you have a sad story to tell about this husband and wife.  Yes, it's sad.  But so is a kid who wants a job who can't get one.  I could just as easily tell stories about children of parents like these two, whose only chance at going to college and bettering themselves is to work a paper route and caddy to save up enough money for college.  That's sad too.  Even sadder in fact, because there are fewer and fewer kids out there that fit this description.

So you are going to equate a young paperboy/caddie from the suburbs to those that have had to take these jobs under the most trying of circumstances. What was I thinking because you DO have real insight. ::)You really do like to paint with a broad brush when it suits your cause no? Further are there a lot of middle/high school kids you know that are getting up at 4 or 5 in the morning to deliver the morning editions of most city newspapers. Dollars to donuts you got out of school and delivered some late afternoon small town evening paper.

[Niall C]

Niall,

Peper basically said that the only way he could justify paying a caddie was if the caddie was a kid trying to earn money for an education. A lot of people on this site agreed with him. That's what is appalling to me when, like I said before, there are grown men who lost their jobs and turned to caddying to support their families and in many cases, pay for their children's education or men who have made their living as caddies since they were kids or recent college graduates perhaps trying to pay off student loans.

I'm okay with giving golfers choices: caddie, cart, carry, but to say the only caddies should be high school/college kids is crazy.  Peper writes "Such obscene fees might be easier to stomach were the recipients latter-day Lowerys—enterprising young kids with a love of golf and a need for some extra cash to finance their education." How does anyone not see that as offensive to the type of caddies I mentioned earlier?

99 percent of the time, a caddie will give you as much information as you ask. If you don't want him to club you, he won't. If you don't want him to read a putt, he won't. If he starts reading a putt for you or telling you what club to hit and you don't want him to, you can tell him so. I'm not sure that allowing the caddy to give you a raw yardage and then letting the player figure out exactly how far it will play and what club to hit comprises the integrity of the game. I don't believe getting a line off the tee or on an approach does either.

I've never played golf overseas, but it wouldn't be fun to guess where to hit the ball when facing a blind shot only to find out that you guessed wrong and ended up in deep rough or a hazard, especially if it's the only time you might get to play the course. I could laugh it off once or twice, but I'm not sure it would be so amusing if it happened much more than that. How does that not make sense?

Nate

IMO, Pepper basically got it spot on as far as your average UK golfer is concerned. They would laugh at the idea of needing a caddy to get round a course, and yes using your intuition to keep a ball in play when playing a blind or semi-blind shot is part of it. Give it a go, I'm sure you'll find golf much more enjoyable when using your brain as opposed being told what to do.

With regards to employing any caddy who happens to have a sob story, are we supposed to interview them before hiring to determine whether they are suitably disadvantaged to qualify for the job ? I don't often agree with Jud on this forum but he hits the nail on the head when he says if its about charity then at least let me choose the charity I give to. That in essence is what Pepper is saying in his article.

Niall

[John McCarthy]

VK: 

The simple answer is to keep the lads out of school completely.  There is plenty of reading material available such as old stroke saver books, February 1998 editions of Golf Magazine and the Daily Racing Form.  They can do their ciphering keeping the scorecard for their players.  As for physical education, what could be better for a boy than five hour walks in the heat while learning to smoke Camels stolen from the older caddies?

This way the lads earn a living, get an education and the club has caddies available season long.  Win/Win. no? 

[V. Kmetz]

JM,

A humorous scenario and one that a handful of the 400 school-boys I've had to supervise could have have advantaged.

Basically, you're describing Hogan, Nelson, Trevino and Chi-chi at the head of the class of several others.

And to treat your proposal with a greater degree of sobriety for just a moment...

From ages 5 to 17, minors should be in school, but after that...there are a ton of young men and some young women who would do far, far better for themselves by looping for 5 years after high school than they would scraping by in college.  I say this as a former caddiemaster, current veteran club caddie and teacher in both state university and community college: there are way too many post-adolescents wasting their time in "higher education."

To the respondents since my morning post, I do not think for one moment you are hostile to caddies or are a grinch, I'm merely pointing out that these in-between policies or categories of worthiness, capability, etc...are futile to pursue, because its such a provincial tradition, unique to each district, place or income class of club we're talking about.  There isn't a generality to be had or a general thesis that can be supported.  It changes the moment you go down the street.

I think to comment so negatively from afar about an entire thing (as if George Peper could sit atop the world of it) is so silly.  It's just mere destructive curmudegonship posing as authoritative wisdom.  A chance to vent because he has the forum, and imo, a mis-use of his reputation, even in one article.

No matter what happens to me in terms of economy (it's tragic now, but might be fine in a couple of years, who knows) I am going to be looping somewhere in the summer.  That would be true even if I hit the biggest Powerball I would feel a hole in my life if I couldn't engage the people and places i have known to such good effect for so very long.  But that's me.



cheers

vk

[Chris Kane]

Quite revealing that noone has even attempted to refute David Elvins' post above.

Taking a caddie might be fun every once in a while on an unfamiliar course, but I wouldn't want to do it regularly, whatever the cost. At my home club, I'm very content carrying or pulling my own bag, reading my own putts on greens I've played maybe a thousand times, and talking to my playing partners rather than feeling obliged to engage my caddie in conversation. I cannot envisage a single benefit that a caddie would provide at that course.

Caddies are an anachronism from golf's origins as a game for the aristocracy and gentry. Clearly there are others who have a different view, but can we please stop attacking the strawman of objection to caddies being an economic issue instead of an individual preference?

[Mike Sweeney]

No matter what happens to me in terms of economy (it's tragic now, but might be fine in a couple of years, who knows) I am going to be looping somewhere in the summer.  That would be true even if I hit the biggest Powerball I would feel a hole in my life if I couldn't engage the people and places i have known to such good effect for so very long.  But that's me.

Nice post. I hope it works out.

Every-time I walk into The Wharf Deli in Newport, Rhode Island, I think of my days at Newport Country Club and my buddies that used to hang there with me from NCC and elsewhere.

I got engaged to my wife at Castle Hill, a 3 wood from NCC:

[Mike Sweeney]

a young Jack Crisham, a young Victor Kmetz, a young Paul Thomas, a young Shelly Solow, a young Tim Bert or Mike Hendren or John Kavanaugh or Gib Papazian or Ran Morissett or Ryan Potts or Jeff Goldman or Jud Tigerman or Matt Cohn or even a young you....  hell,  even a young Terry Lavin. .  And forgive me for all the guys whose names I have skipped solely for brevity purposes...

Give me a shack full of THOSE guys.  Nobody I know would have the slightest issue with that.  And that's the point.

Shivas,

How many of these guys actually carried a bag other than their own?

While we are on it, how many bags have your carried for money and for how many years? Senior PGA tournaments? Amateur tournaments? Let's see what you got!

This is similar to the Philly Test. How many guys from Philly have actually played Walnut Lane?

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/walnut-lane/

I am saying you got nothin other than preppy BS from the North Shore.   I know Kavanaugh never carried a bag for money.  

[Mac Plumart]

Am I alone in the view that you and your caddy are a team working together in an effort to play your best golf and post the best score you can?

[Mike Sweeney]

I carried a bag for money from 12 thru the summer before my senior year in college.  Somewhere around 800 bags, I guess.  Twice a day sometimes, but rarely.  Most days just once.  Hardly ever doubles; only in emergencies.  When I wasn't carrying, I worked in the pro shop - desk boy, bag rat, range picker, the whole schmear.  Sorry Mike, but you can't honestly lay the do-nothing, country club brat label on me.  Yeah, I played plenty of golf at my club, but only after I earned my keep working at another.  (I did have a lot of privileges at the club I worked at, though; I didn't have to sit in the shack waiting for a loop; by high school, I was allowed to practice at the range or chip and putt in my down time, something for which I will alway be grateful).  I carried in a lot of state opens, Ams, etc., even an Open. 

Okay, okay but Kavanaugh is not helping your average! 

[Mark Chaplin]

Mike Vegis - "you just pay the tip" does that mean the resort is paying the caddie his fee as an employee? As a Brit I'd think a generous tip to be $25 but is that all he is getting, should the "tip" really be $75-100?

Nate - the no distance on sprinkler thing is all about protecting the caddies, remove caddies and you'd soon have the numbers. How did you find playing the links courses in GB&I? Did you ever take 5 hours because you were confronted by a blind shot and tricky greens.

My worst experience with lazy unprofessional caddies was at a very famous Long Island club yet they still expected their $100 per bag.

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