[Adam Clayman]

Brent, I'll just say that you're wrong about me and the conditions I experience the day I play. I'm a golfer that adapts. Afterall, sometimes it rains. But isn't that part of the evaluation and the awareness level being asked of me? How well a course drains and where.

As for the people in the world that play golf. They are different than golfers. A kid who caddies has a better chance to become a golfer than any other introductory avenue.  And even then, in our me me me society, common courtesy ain't so common.

People make their choices. I'm a believer in allowing them the freedom to choose. If I pay 30k a year in caddy fees to play Cypress point 5 days a week, I better get 90k in utility (enjoyment) out of it, to choose that. If I play 5 great courses in a year and it costs me an extra $500 more to take a caddy, I'm lucky to have gotten to play those courses that year and view it in a non monetary perspective.

It's not as though the people in this forum have to take a caddy everyday, just when their notching their bedposts.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Geoff,

Private clubs in Major metropolitan areas are in no way shape or form a value proposition.  Some people are willing to pay for the ability to play a round of golf on a pristine course without tee-times in 4 hours.  If one doesn't factor in the cost of mandatory caddies at such clubs in the cost equation, then one deserves what one gets:  a luxury item that he can't afford.  

Jud,

My point is that prospective members ARE factoring these costs into the equation and are voting with their feet and their checkbooks not to join a number of these clubs.  These prospective members are essential to the future of these clubs and many are closing their doors or merging as a result.  I disagree that clubs truly can't offer a value proposition... they just have to adapt to the changing landscape.

Keep in mind that many are willing to pay the standard initiation fee and monthly dues which obviously make up the bulk of the expense.  They are not trying to rationalize joining a club on a $$/round basis which most realize is a futile exercise.

[Jud_T]

Geoff,

It's all relative to the specific club and the specific location.  Obviously some clubs are struggling and will adapt,  and it will be a lot more than mandatory caddies that need to be addressed.  Other clubs in the toniest burbs will continue to see strong demand and maintain a strong mandatory caddie program.  I don't see mandatory caddies as the straw that breaks the camel's back in most of these situations however.  It's merely a symptom of a larger problem in most instances IMO.

[Kevin_D]

I'd like someone to name one top notch private golf club in the northeast that doesn't require caddies.

This is an utterly pointless discussion.  Places that like and have a tradition of caddies have them.  Places that don't, don't.  You are free to make your own choices with where you live and golf.

[Brent Hutto]

Somehow I'd imagine your definition of "top notch" includes having caddies.

[Kevin_D]

Brent: no, my definition would be any course that people drool over (or even just speak of complementary) here.  You know, PVGC, NGLA, Winged Foot, Merion, Shinnecock, Maidstone, Friar's Head, Sebonack, Garden City, the Creek, Aronimink, Baltusrol, etc etc etc.  I'll also throw in old school clubs elsewhere: ANGC, Chicago Golf Club, LACC, etc.

I don't know for sure what the policies at these all these clubs are, but I know several require caddies, and bet most, if not all, do.

Don't like it?  Don't join.

[Nate Oxman]

Wow! I found Peper's story really offensive and full of hasty generalizations. Among the 50 or so full-time (work six or seven days per week during the season) caddies we have, there are maybe one or two of what Peper calls "professional caddies." Many caddies are "lifers," all of whom take tremendous pride in their work and are old school: they speak when spoken to, offer their opinions when asked, provide yardages and reads and any other info. each player may require, and really feel out their players to judge how much interaction there should be in between shots. Those who aren't lifers are either club pros who lost their jobs for whatever reason or former businessmen who were laid off and became caddies BECAUSE THEY HAVE FAMILIES TO SUPPORT! They swallowed their pride and now caddie for guys who were former colleagues. They lost their jobs and turned to golf. Would those of you who agree with Peper do the same? Where would you turn? Please think about this before you complain about paying a caddie. The number of high school and college kids we have continues to decline, unfortunately, but the number of recent college graduates who can't find a job and came to our club to caddy continues to rise. Do you have a problem paying these kids who are trying to make a living so they don't have to rely on their moms and dads anymore? How about the fact that in the middle of the summer, with a heat index above 100, these caddies do two loops per day, many times without a break? Can you appreciate that Peper?

Is there a caddie here or there who has a tendency to talk too much? Sure and we try to tell these guys that you have to treat each player differently. Some may like a lot of conversation while others may need a yardage to the center of the green and nothing more.

I would love to see Peper and his supporters play our course for the first time without a caddie. Good luck trying to figure out the yardages from unmarked sprinkler caps without a GPS or laser. They're not allowed. Good luck reading the greens. Good luck picking lines off the tee and on blind second shots or approaches. Good luck finding your ball in the rough or fescue. Good luck breaking 100. I don't know anything about Peper, but he sounds like one of the guys caddies loathe, the type of guy who comes to the first tee with a bad attitude, already skeptical of the caddie's ability before the guy even gives him the a yardage or a read. Apparently he works with various organizations on pace of play. As some mentioned, good luck playing places like NGLA and Merion in four hours without a caddie and having fun doing it. I'd bet he'd say to himself at least once a hole, "Where's the line?" or "Which way does this putt break?" and then wish he had a caddie to answer him.

[Mike Sweeney]

I'd like someone to name one top notch private golf club in the northeast that doesn't require caddies.

Fishers Island (has caddies)

Eastward Ho

Bald Peak

Wianno (has caddies)

Hyannisport (I think)

Misquamicutt

Yale

Southampton

Merion Golf Club - West Course

Maidstone - last time I played

Hidden Creek

Baltimore Country Club

[Mike Sweeney]

I would love to see Peper and his supporters play our course for the first time without a caddie. Good luck trying to figure out the yardages from unmarked sprinkler caps without a GPS or laser. They're not allowed. Good luck reading the greens. Good luck picking lines off the tee and on blind second shots or approaches. Good luck finding your ball in the rough or fescue. Good luck breaking 100. I don't know anything about Peper, but he sounds like one of the guys caddies loathe, the type of guy who comes to the first tee with a bad attitude, already skeptical of the caddie's ability before the guy even gives him the a yardage or a read. Apparently he works with various organizations on pace of play. As some mentioned, good luck playing places like NGLA and Merion in four hours without a caddie and having fun doing it. I'd bet he'd say to himself at least once a hole, "Where's the line?" or "Which way does this putt break?" and then wish he had a caddie to answer him.

Nate,

I will always have a soft spot for Merion, I could probably play Merion with a blind fold along with Yale. Yale is a much harder course to play without a caddie. They had them years ago at Yale, but none today.

Yale has probably 6-8 college tournaments a year, and the college guys figure it out. Merion is really not that difficult to figure out from tee to green, even 18 fairway is seen from the 17th tee.

I am a former caddie at Whitemarsh, Bala, and Newport Country Club, where I also caddied for a Senior PGA Tournament in the early days. George Pepper is a legend in golf journalism and since he lived for a year or two in St Andrews, I was surprised to read his thoughts on carts. I think he is still a member at Sleepy Hollow, my favorite course in Westchester County. His opinion, excluding carts, is one that I probably agree with. In general, I prefer playing Yale with 65 year old women with PhD's who also carry their own bag. I am not against modern caddies, I just would never join a club that requires them. I belong to Yale, Wianno, and Enniscrone and caddies are not required at any of them, but they are offered in season at two of them.

Cheers.

[Ryan McLaughlin]

I had an interesting experience last month.  We were playing a practice round at La Costa and on the 8th hole a caddie just rolled up and started hanging out with our group.  We didnt request it but he mustve seen an opportunity for a tip.  It was actually a little annoying for the first couple holes as we were doing our own recon of the course.  After about 5 holes we started talking shop and it became more enjoyable.  Ive spent 10 bucks on worse things.  It is sad that the only opportunities out here in So Cal are the high end resort course that have nothing more than fore caddies hearding around high handicappers.  I started caddieing at age 14 at a private club and that led to a cart barn job through high school, which led to off course retail golf job in college, which led to a brief career as a club pro after college.  It was a huge foundation to how I developed as an adult.   I really feel my kids are missing out if they dont have that opportunity.  I hope to at least get my boys to be prepared to caddie for me and learn how to interact with adults that I play with. 

[Nate Oxman]

Mike,

Cheers to you! A good player might be able to find his or her way around after a few plays, but the first time? No way. Of the second shot on No. 2, the tee shot or second shot on No. 4, and the tee shots on 6, 7, 8, 11, 16 or 18, you're bound to guess incorrectly when choosing your line at on at least a few of those. You'd have to walk long distances on all of those holes to get the line. And the greens? I've seen hundreds of good players fail to play enough break or play too much break and miss putts they could've easily made had they asked their caddie. I've seen hundreds more not only misjudge the amount of break, but which direction the putt breaks as well! That's something which won't get easier after a few rounds. All of that will cost a player 5 shots or more. Are there exceptions? Of course and you appear to be one of them. By the way, good luck crossing Ardmore Avenue with your blindfold on.

I recently interviewed a local club pro and former PGA Tour player who has competed in multiple majors and he said that players in the Open in June will have the most difficulty: 1. reading the subtle breaks on the greens and 2. figuring out the spots on and around the greens where they absolutely don't want to be.

Having a caddie on a course wherever everything is laid out in front of you, with yardages marked all over the place and easy greens to read may not be necessary. But a course with a lot of blind shots and hard-to-read greens? A good surely helps.

Some mentioned that they get their exercise from walking on a treadmill. Why on earth would you do that when you could get your exercise by walking a golf course? That's ridiculous.

More importantly, I find it appalling that people would only pay high school and college-aged caddies when there are caddies who are trying to pay for their own kids to go to college among many important things. That's just mind-boggling to me.

[astavrides]

Some mentioned that they get their exercise from walking on a treadmill. Why on earth would you do that when you could get your exercise by walking a golf course? That's ridiculous.

They are different things.  walking a golf course may strengthen your leg muscles a bit, but it is not aerobic exercise.

[Kevin_D]

Mike - let's be real. Yale is a university course, even if they have members.  Name a club within 45 miles of NYC that doesn't require caddies on Saturday and Sunday morning. I'm not even sure I believe your merion west and Maidstone. What time of year and what day of the week was that?

I just don't understand the incredible animosity many on this site have towards caddies. If you don't like, or can't afford, taking a caddie, fine, I have no problem with that. But to denigrate something that has been part of the game from the beginning, and has terrific people doing it currently (both kids learning and earning their way through school, as well as lifers) is just sad and disgusting to me.  What is it that you are so against?

For all you waging some campaign against caddies, I feel sorry for you. I assure you, at many clubs, members enjoy taking caddies and are happy there are enough caddies to fill demand.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

At Kiawah, we give player's the option - take a caddie with no "caddie fee" (just gratuity) or carry your own bag. We don't have carts as with all the sand, that's impractical.  Or, play after noon and you can take a cart (cart path only).  People love it...

[jeffwarne]

At Kiawah, we give player's the option - take a caddie with no "caddie fee" (just gratuity) or carry your own bag. We don't have carts as with all the sand, that's impractical.    People love it...

I'm always amazed that more clubs don't provide the same choice.
Works pretty well in those islands where golf began.
Win-win

[Mike Sweeney]

Name a club within 45 miles of NYC that doesn't require caddies on Saturday and Sunday morning.

Your first request was a "Top Notch" private club that does not require a caddy in the Northeast. I took that to mean places where members can carry their bag at anytime.

Your updated request is simply for a "club" that doesn't require caddies on Saturday and Sunday morning, 45 miles from the City.

The answer is most clubs require a cart or a caddie, very few (Garden City, Winged Foot, others?) are caddie only.

I'm not even sure I believe your merion west and Maidstone. What time of year and what day of the week was that?

There are no caddies at Merion West. If you want a caddie, you have to pick them up at The East and drive them to The West. If the policy has changed, I believe there are others on this thread that can update me if that has changed. Last time I played The West, it was on a Saturday morning in the summer and we walked with our own bags. It has been a number of years since I played Maidstone in the summer, but we carried our own bags. I have played a number of times in the fall, and we have always carried.

Again I am not anti-caddie, I am "pro-choice" , with one of the choices being that I can carry my bag anytime. This is why I like Wianno and the Streamsong complex. I normally take a caddie at Wianno. The only rule that I disagree with at SS is a forecaddie is mandatory with a cart, but that was explained to me that was due to the grow in so that golfers would not drive in sensitive areas. Certainly understandable in the first season. We walked at SS with our own bags.

Cheers.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike,

I recently interviewed a local club pro and former PGA Tour player who has competed in multiple majors and he said that players in the Open in June will have the most difficulty: 1. reading the subtle breaks on the greens and 2. figuring out the spots on and around the greens where they absolutely don't want to be.


More importantly, I find it appalling that people would only pay high school and college-aged caddies when there are caddies who are trying to pay for their own kids to go to college among many important things. That's just mind-boggling to me.

1. Augusta used to require that you use their caddies at The Masters. The policy was dropped and other than an Amateur or foreign player does anyone use the Augusta caddies? The local knowledge seems like a stretch based on the fact they no PGA pros use local caddies. If their knowledge base was that valuable, the PGA players would use them. That said, I find it strange that PGA tour players don't hire local caddies or members to walk the course with them during a practice round.

2. I know this second point was not directed at me, but I will address it. Honestly, I try to contribute to alot of charities, including The Burke Foundation which is the Rhode Island Caddie Scholarship fund. Not huge numbers, but I try to be "part of the team" as a former Newport Country Club caddie. Your argument that I should pay a surplus for the value that I perceive for someone to put their kid through college does not ring true to me. Once again, I am not anti-caddie, just pro-choice. I caddied in high school and college, and then for me, it was time to move onward and join clubs. That is my perception of the perfect caddie "circle of life".  I have encouraged my son to spend a summer at Sankaty Head on Nantucket. He looks at me like I am nuts.   Cheers.

PS. When I am in New Jersey, I like the gas prices (lower taxes) in New Jersey compared to NY and CT where I mainly buy gas. However, it is still crazy to me that there is mandatory (no self-service) gas pumping attendants in New Jersey, the land of Chris Christie!

[Brent Hutto]

I have no animosity toward caddies and have met some who were awfully nice persons and solid professionals to boot.

I have no animosity toward clubs which offer caddie services or even those requiring their members and/or visitors to use caddies whether they want them or not. Golf is a big world with all sorts of preferences catered to.

My disdain is directed at people who are quite smart and well traveled enough to know better yet they act as though the entireity of golf in this country springs from the loins of a few dozen wealthy and exclusive private clubs in a handful of metropolitan areas. To say that one loves caddie programs and wishes there were more of them extant is one thing. To repeatedly insist that caddies are a universal and fundamental part of golf is ludicrous.

For my part, caddying is in the same category as golf carts. I view both as impediments to MY game while on the other hand some people quite honestly can not contemplate the game without them. Have I used caddies before? Of course. Have I ridden in golf carts? Naturally. Neither really suits my own way of playing but that's just one golfer's preference in a big, wide world.

[Paul Gray]

At Kiawah, we give player's the option - take a caddie with no "caddie fee" (just gratuity) or carry your own bag. We don't have carts as with all the sand, that's impractical.    People love it...

I'm always amazed that more clubs don't provide the same choice.
Works pretty well in those islands where golf began.
Win-win

Amen to that.

I'm still utterly bemused by the inane natural of forcing a golfer to hire a bag man.

And for those still arguing that a few U.S courses require a bloody tour guide, part of the fun for many that come to play the links and heathland courses over here is in discovering the tracks for themselves. By all means feel free to hire a man if you're not capable of looking after yourself or would appreciate the assistance but don't try to defend any policy which forces the same onto me.

[Jud_T]

Paul,

In the States, where we are lazy and fat, clubs require caddies so that there will continue to be a robust caddie program.  If you don't require them, most people will ride, some will carry or push and the odd group that actually wants caddies will have to arrange for them in advance and hope they are available when school's not in session.  You may not understand or like this situation, but that's what it is.  For the umpteenth time, high-end U.S. private clubs in fancy zip codes are a luxury item.  The cost of required caddies or forecaddies is part of the price of doing business at these clubs.  You might also think that the $50,000 initiation fee and $10,000 yearly dues are ridiculous, as many of us do.  If you don't like it and/or can't afford it, you can cue up with the rest of us riff-raff for a five hour rolling booze cruise at your favorite public dogtrack.    I love the GB&I model, but it's a different culture, different politics and a different real-estate market.  For better AND worse, we are not GB&I.

[Chris Johnston]

I like taking caddies but don't like at all being forced to take a caddie.

The Evans Scholars are one of the best things in golf.  I was the youngest (at the time) Life Member of the Evans Scholars and still support them today.  This program is terrific and really has earned the support of all in golf.

Depending on the mood, the day, the people I'm playing with and other variables, I may carry, push a cart, take a caddie, or ride.  I really like having the choice.

It can be a pain to drop $200-300 on an "A" caddie, and I certainly expect good service when visiting a place that makes me do it - I've only had a handful of poor caddies in 25 years. 

Where available, I'll take a kid every time. 

[Niall C]

Mike,

Cheers to you! A good player might be able to find his or her way around after a few plays, but the first time? No way. Of the second shot on No. 2, the tee shot or second shot on No. 4, and the tee shots on 6, 7, 8, 11, 16 or 18, you're bound to guess incorrectly when choosing your line at on at least a few of those. You'd have to walk long distances on all of those holes to get the line. And the greens? I've seen hundreds of good players fail to play enough break or play too much break and miss putts they could've easily made had they asked their caddie. I've seen hundreds more not only misjudge the amount of break, but which direction the putt breaks as well! That's something which won't get easier after a few rounds. All of that will cost a player 5 shots or more. Are there exceptions? Of course and you appear to be one of them. By the way, good luck crossing Ardmore Avenue with your blindfold on.

I recently interviewed a local club pro and former PGA Tour player who has competed in multiple majors and he said that players in the Open in June will have the most difficulty: 1. reading the subtle breaks on the greens and 2. figuring out the spots on and around the greens where they absolutely don't want to be.

Having a caddie on a course wherever everything is laid out in front of you, with yardages marked all over the place and easy greens to read may not be necessary. But a course with a lot of blind shots and hard-to-read greens? A good surely helps.

Some mentioned that they get their exercise from walking on a treadmill. Why on earth would you do that when you could get your exercise by walking a golf course? That's ridiculous.

More importantly, I find it appalling that people would only pay high school and college-aged caddies when there are caddies who are trying to pay for their own kids to go to college among many important things. That's just mind-boggling to me.

Nate

I come from the land of quirk, with blind holes a plenty. Here we even have the odd hole that requires you to drive over a building or chip over a wall onto a green, you may have heard of them. And yet ninety-nine percent of golfers over here manage to get round without a caddy. That leads me to wonder what kind of courses you have over there ?!

But more to the point, isn't golf about using your head ? If someone tells you the yardage, tells you what club to hit, what the line of the putt is, is that really golf or is it just swinging a club ?

No doubt its a culture thing, but I find it appalling (your word) that someone like you wants to debase what is basically a game by reducing it an industry we are compelled to support.

Niall

[Niall C]

I have no animosity toward caddies and have met some who were awfully nice persons and solid professionals to boot.

I have no animosity toward clubs which offer caddie services or even those requiring their members and/or visitors to use caddies whether they want them or not. Golf is a big world with all sorts of preferences catered to.

My disdain is directed at people who are quite smart and well traveled enough to know better yet they act as though the entireity of golf in this country springs from the loins of a few dozen wealthy and exclusive private clubs in a handful of metropolitan areas. To say that one loves caddie programs and wishes there were more of them extant is one thing. To repeatedly insist that caddies are a universal and fundamental part of golf is ludicrous.

For my part, caddying is in the same category as golf carts. I view both as impediments to MY game while on the other hand some people quite honestly can not contemplate the game without them. Have I used caddies before? Of course. Have I ridden in golf carts? Naturally. Neither really suits my own way of playing but that's just one golfer's preference in a big, wide world.

well said that man

[Nate Oxman]

Niall,

Peper basically said that the only way he could justify paying a caddie was if the caddie was a kid trying to earn money for an education. A lot of people on this site agreed with him. That's what is appalling to me when, like I said before, there are grown men who lost their jobs and turned to caddying to support their families and in many cases, pay for their children's education or men who have made their living as caddies since they were kids or recent college graduates perhaps trying to pay off student loans.

I'm okay with giving golfers choices: caddie, cart, carry, but to say the only caddies should be high school/college kids is crazy.  Peper writes "Such obscene fees might be easier to stomach were the recipients latter-day Lowerys—enterprising young kids with a love of golf and a need for some extra cash to finance their education." How does anyone not see that as offensive to the type of caddies I mentioned earlier?

99 percent of the time, a caddie will give you as much information as you ask. If you don't want him to club you, he won't. If you don't want him to read a putt, he won't. If he starts reading a putt for you or telling you what club to hit and you don't want him to, you can tell him so. I'm not sure that allowing the caddy to give you a raw yardage and then letting the player figure out exactly how far it will play and what club to hit comprises the integrity of the game. I don't believe getting a line off the tee or on an approach does either.

I've never played golf overseas, but it wouldn't be fun to guess where to hit the ball when facing a blind shot only to find out that you guessed wrong and ended up in deep rough or a hazard, especially if it's the only time you might get to play the course. I could laugh it off once or twice, but I'm not sure it would be so amusing if it happened much more than that. How does that not make sense?

[David_Elvins]

I just don't understand the incredible animosity many on this site have towards caddies

I am happy to accept caddies for what they are but it isn't hard for me to understand why people don't like the concept.  Caddies are basically servants and servants are a product of societies with big wage disparities, a very poor underclass and to a lesser extent slavery.  Anyone who is middle class or who sees the large middle class of western society as what separates us from developing countries is possibly going to be uncomfortable entering into a master/servant relationship with another adult.  

When Nate states that a good caddy is one who "speaks when he is spoken to" can you not see that this is a type of relationship that the majority of society does not have with other mature human beings.  Not these days, anyway.  It is how people used to talk about their children or their slaves.

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