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Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2013, 04:18:42 PM »
Its been a while since I've posted but I feel very strongly about this one and I'm glad George wrote the article.

I'm all for caddies and I respect their work as I caddied through high school and college. However there are only a handful of caddies worth $70-$100 especially if the caddy is carrying 2 bags as is the norm.  Furthermore, what can a caddy really provide in advice if one is playing their home course? 

I think that these the mandatory caddy policies are a detriment to clubs as dues are cost prohibitive enough.  Who wants to pay the equivalent of a daily fee on top of dues every time they play?

Caddies are a luxury and I'd like to see clubs move away from mandatory policies.  Let's let the free market speak here and see what happens. 


Greg,

It is a free market.  You are free to choose not to join or play at a course that requires mandatory caddies.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2013, 04:25:34 PM »
When my club opened in 1999 caddies were mandatory at most times of the day.  If you rode, you took a forecaddie.  Since then the rules have relaxed and caddies are mandatory only at certain busy times of the week.  For the first few years I took a caddie most every time I played.  Since the rule has been relaxed I don't.  I like a caddie. I had one caddie I took every time I played.  I always played better with him.  Not sure why but I did.  He could really read the greens. 
We don't have as many caddies anymore.  More guys are carrying. 
If money were not a factor, I think I would take a caddie most of the time.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2013, 05:10:49 PM »
As a kid, much like a few of us around here, I would very occasionally get a request from the pro shop to caddy for a visiting golf society but the idea of mandatory caddies is almost too alien for me to get my head around. It sounds like a warped take on a P.G Wodehouse story.    
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 06:22:57 PM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2013, 05:45:20 PM »
Gentlemen,

Talking about P.G. Wodehouse and caddies in the same breath made me start a bit.  I am not sure but I do not recall "Plum" ever writing about or describing a caddy or even a caddy scene in any of his golfing prose.  Have I just missed the writings or is this really the case? Anybody able to point to any examples in Wodehouse's collections of golfing stories?  A good reason to revisit those pearls!

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Keith Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2013, 06:05:24 PM »
I'm a huge fan of Peper but stunned by his perspective on this given his metro-area golfing roots.  I guess several years in Scotland opened his eyes to a different, affordable approach (i.e. carrying your own or using a trolley), but then his enthusiasm for cartball was wholly-unexpected.  I play at a traditional club in the northeast and we have a strong caddie program.  It could be characterized as a luxury (I spend ~$5,000 per year on caddies...don't tell my wife  ;D), but frankly it would be a lot less fun playing each weekend without the additional camaraderie offered by the caddies at my club.  Having said that, as I contemplate a winter membership down south I have been weighing the pros and cons of caddie vs cart courses, and the extra $ are certainly a consideration.

Bob_Garvelink

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Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2013, 06:10:05 PM »
Although I rarely use caddies I have had some wonderful experiences with a FEW top notch caddies.  Additionally I have paid $100 for a caddie that smoked almost an entire pack of smokes during my round.  The funny thing was the private club that I was playing did not allow cigs.   ???
"Pure Michigan"

Andy Troeger

Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2013, 06:18:37 PM »
From a guest perspective, part of the issue is that most caddies don't add that much to the round. They do a bunch of things I could easily do myself, such as carry the clubs, rake bunkers, find yardages, get the pin, etc. I've had a few that were really good that added to the experience (forgetting for a moment about cost entirely), but many are just there and a few detracted from the round.

If all caddies really made the golf experience more positive, I think the reaction to them would be more positive. But the trend toward adult full-time caddies that follow the sun, as stated in the article, seems to have made it more of a business transaction than anything else. I'm happy to take a caddie when its required/expected, but I find I most enjoy the rounds where I'm allowed to walk and carry and find my own way.

Richard Crumb

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Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2013, 06:44:14 PM »
My club claims to be a walking course, but most members take carts.  If you walk, you are obligated to take a caddy.  The caddies are local high school and college students who benefit from a caddy scholarship program along with the $ they make caddying.  I like to support the caddy program whenever possible. I have a problem with able bodied members who ride in carts and do not support the program by taking a caddy.  Carts should be for people who can't walk a full round of golf.  Working out on a treadmill or in a gym before your round does not get you a pass to take a cart. 

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2013, 06:46:21 PM »
My feelings about caddies are the same as bag boys.  If they're  under 25 and working their way thru college happy to tip, etc.  More than happy to take a caddy if not over priced and not a 'job'.  I don't need or want a professional caddy.  To help someone appreciate the game and pay for an education, how can you object?

Tim Martin

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Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2013, 07:28:34 PM »
The club where I play does not have caddies and that is fine with me as I like to walk and carry. I have no problem in going with the flow when at a club that requires caddies and have had many more positive than negative experiences. To me it is always a treat to play a really good golf course and take a caddie. I really don't care whether the caddie shoots the yardage or steps it off as long as it is accurate. The club normally sets that policy as to whether or not the caddie uses a range finder. I caddied growing up and have respect for someone that really wants to enhance the experience for his player and hustle.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 08:04:20 PM by Tim Martin »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2013, 07:45:32 PM »
I too am surprised by Peper's attitude.  I would have thought he would be pro caddie.  In any case, its hard to understand why someone would be anti-caddie.  Courses which require caddies are easy to avoid if one feels that caddies aren't for him.  I am definitely not keen on pro caddies and am far more likely to go the bag carrier route if it was more popular and cheaper.  The problem is everybody wants a big chunk of cash for doing actually very little and when one considers golf is only game...well its easy to see the future of caddies unless they are mandatory.  No way I would ever join a club with mandatory caddies.  Its too much of a production just to hit a ball and it jacks the price of a game unnecessarily high. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2013, 08:22:17 PM »
I was a caddie as a kid (didn’t really like it—preferred playing but learned something about golf and people through caddying). I have used caddies occasionally, either at clubs where required or at my club where it’s optional but they have a good Evans Scholars program and a good training program for younger kids. Some of my best experiences on a golf course have been with caddies (e.g. the caddie at Portrush who steered me around to one of my best rounds ever on my only playing there), I wish I could say I want to use caddies more. However, unfortunately my experiences are just too mixed to get me to do so. For example, my visit to Streamsong 2 weeks ago, I was assigned an experienced caddy who has worked at great courses like Shinnecock and Bandon. He should have been perfect for the job. Instead, he spent much more time hanging out with—and giving reads and yardage etc. to--another player pushing a cart, often while I stood around waiting for him. It was like having a guy carrying double who wasn’t.  I couldn’t figure it out (nor could my other two playing partners or the other caddie in our group). Ultimately I decided this caddie just wanted to get more $$ from this other player by sucking up to him. In any case, I was pretty annoyed. If he was carrying double, this makes sense; not if he is the man on my bag. Needless to say I blew off his offer to caddy a second round and carried my bag the next two rounds. Too bad—caddying should be a noble profession but like other noble professions it suffers from weak links.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2013, 08:43:09 PM »
 ::) :'( ???


It's all about the money guys, if caddies were the same price as carts , I doubt if many would opt for the buggies .  It's expensive .

I'm obviously prejudiced to the looper, as spent  so much time doing it as a youth and it paid for most of m college tuition and all of my Adidas basketball sneaks in high school. Also it turned me on to golf , and introduced me to some wonderful people who have made my life richer , many of you included.

I've been a big proponent of reduced caddy fees and forecaddies , which I think are great aids to pace of play and economical. As a special treat at "special courses" it's lots of fun to,have a good caddy, and these clubs should strive to hire only the best !





Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2013, 08:44:30 PM »
Two kinds of caddies are okay, I like these dudes/dudettes.

1). Under 22 kid in school that needs to make some bucks and likes golf.  

2). Over 60 retiree (with pension) that needs to get some off the books gambling money, get exercise a few times a week, and likes golf.

One type of caddy is marginal.  This guy is neither here nor there.

-The middle-aged professional caddy that uses it as a primary job.

One is insufferable

- The middle-aged scratch handicap trust fund baby that is a member at some amazing club.  

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2013, 10:51:40 PM »
During my 12 season tenure as Caddiemaster at Rockrimmon Country Club in Stamford, CT I had a mix of seasonal scholastic kids and about 7 or 8 weekend warriors totaling about 35-40. 

On weekends even though I generally followed a necessary program of sending the caddies who would/could do 36 holes first (they needed to be back in to handle the 11:30+ Ladies and Guest play), I also mixed in as many of the WWs - who were salesman, construction workers, electricians, teachers, UPS men, etc - as I could in this cadre of the first 10 caddies out for the day even though most of them could not do "2" loops. (I had one WW who was the head of FCIAC scholastic referees and sometimes in the fall, he'd be cutting it close for his own referee gig and would caddy #18 in his zebra stripes after I drove em out to him...gave you the FG sign if you hit the fairway.)

These guys, unlike the 16-22 age crowd, had family responsibilities, had second weekend jobs, were taking their younger kids to LL, coached LL, and were taking grown kids on campus visits, etc.  So, one of the reasons was so that they could maximize their "off-time," (if any) get off the course by noon and get home to their lawns and graduations and weddings. The other central reason I did this is that, like many clubs, the leading members of the club -- in wealth, or golf skill, or board positions, or themselves needing to get off the course by noon for their activities -- usually played at those earliest times. 

They needed to be taken care of and these WW were the most popular among them - they did in fact comprise almost the 8 best of my 40 in terms of caddying acumen and skill and naturally, maturity. These earlier players also paid the best in that era, if the going rate was $60, they paid $70, $75, $80.  This of course meant a good deal to these WW specifically; this extra 7-8K they earned over 30 weekends a year was vital to having some savings for children, a nice week in Disney World for a family of four or five, a rainy day fund for the cars, washing machines, roof repairs, gift envelopes and extraordinary things that send a lot of middle-class guys to the poor house.

One of these Weekend Warriors was Pete Maar, a 53 year-old US postman in Old Greenwich for 24 years. The slogan on the pediment of the Farley Postal building across from MSG in NYC  (Neither rain, nor snow, nor gloom of night shall stay these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds...) described Pete perfectly.  I came to learn that he had missed three days of work in those 24 years.  He not once missed a loop or an assignment in the years I knew him. He requested vacation time from the post office only after he asked me about the summer golf schedule.

Pete was well, well -liked by all ages or factions of the club.  Hardly said two non-golf words out there and became as requested as the best technical caddies at any club.  Guys of all stripes, young old, hackers or club championship caliber happily took him out.  Guys that were irritants and squeaky wheels turned into affable, non-plus gems when they came back from a round with Pete. Basically, you could set your watch to this guy.

He took any and every shit assignment I might have to dole out and actually asked that he go out with some of those specifically, if he sensed that the young caddie I was forced to devolve to, couldn't or wouldn't handle a particular loop well. If I was short of personnel for the afternoon players, even though he just walked 30 miles during the week and 5 more concluding a minute ago, he said, "I'll go Vin, just lemme get a shirt and sandwich out of my truck."  He drove the world's worst beater...a little Datsun mini-pickup truck that would've been eschewed in 1903, no less 2003. But from this little car, he gave member jumps and changed their occasional flat tire...flatly refused, and would in fact run-away from people offering money.  But if you didn't say thank you or didn't acknowledge him the next time you were up at the club, you went down in his notebook, and would never be helped again...as Pete repeated from some movie, "I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire."

As time went on, I could never do enough for Pete as his second employer. Pete LOVED golf, if Monday rotated as his "day-off" from the postal route and there was no outing at Rockrimmon, he'd use his privileges to play 45 holes (and then fish way out in the sticks of the course); I think he played twice a week after work, walking the Norwalk muni, Oak Hill. Whenever I could get free to use my juice, I took Pete and two other college-age caddies to play Old Oaks and Century and Stanwich and Quaker Ridge and the like; my god were they so appreciative...we used to call it our Semi-annual Loopers summit and used to talk about where we might go that year, as far back as in March. For guys who would likely never see these courses in their life, to have them all to themselves and playign with a cart...we had it better than the members

Pete's favorite movie was, "On the Waterfront" and indeed Pete was like an unaffected and true "Terry Malloy" character, the role that Brando made so memorable.  Pete was accepted into Syracuse when his number was called in 1967, and he took no deferment, just went and got his Purple Heart in Vietnam...and then re-upped for another tour after two months stateside healing up.

By all accounts (Pete never spoke a word about it) he had a bit of a chip on his shoulder when he came back in 1973-74.  He didn't have much going on outside of his military benefits and he started caddying again at Rockrimmon, where he had looped as a high-schooler before the war.  The other caddies tell me that he often wore fatigue bottoms on the course (not so unusual then when caddie apparel was like Caddyshack) and a few other irregularities in deportment and attitude.  This post-war 2nd stint at Rockrimmon did not go so well, culminating in Pete dropping the bag, after an argument/dustup with a member on the 11th green, and walking home...never to be seen again for 20 years, the year before I got there.

Well, back to the early-morning loops and my Weekend Warriors... I did have one "problem" - if you could call it that.  There were two lovely guys, Rich Sheingold and Peter Weisbard who weren't that good (a 22 and 25 HCP when I first met them), were not part of the "in"-crowd, but often wanted to play early too...the earliest if they could.  This was a problem because they often didn't have a third or fourth and had to take pot-luck hook-ups an hour or more later than those early times, which made for both a much slower round and a total conclusion time 2 hours later than they hoped.  Also, this meant they got the low-priority caddies on the younger and immature end of the scale.  They said nothing to me, never complained, always understood, treated me like I was powdering their ass instead of screwing them and were perfect gentleman. I wanted to, but I couldn't get latitude to do better for them, because they had a reputation, never honestly tested, that said: "They are bad, therefore they are slow."

Well one Saturday morning, Pete couldn't be there until 8:30am (he apologized six times before the day actually came) and Sheingold and Weisbard were taking their de-facto morning screwing over by me, waiting for the Back nine to clear, when I decided to use the opportunity to send them out with Pete.  Four hours later, they came back into my office, and said in stereo, "We don't ever want to go out with anybody else again, if you can do it Vin."  Then Pete came in to get his chit pay, and before I could mention what they said, he said, "Vin, if it works out for you, I'll take those guys every morning, no matter when they play or who they play with." I know Rich and Peter were great guys, and may have slipped Pete extra dough now and again, but back then they were not the easiest loop...they were everywhere and you needed a pith helmet and a compass to get them under 95, if you were lucky.

And for the next 4 seasons, anytime Sheingold and Weisbard were playing and Pete was there to caddy, out they went.  Early on in this match-making, I also realized that they were playing noticeably faster with Pete, enopugh so that I could also hook them up and, if they would get a third or fourth early enough, I would have them lead off the day at 7:15.  They got their third, another lovely, low-key chap named Ed Fuhrman and often, in short time, another prince, Ernie Stern (a Legion of Order recipient from France - a "Chevalier") and from then on, Sheingold Wesibard, Fuhrman, Ernie stern... and Pete were first on my tee sheet, unless they wished to play later. when Pete couldn't make a governor's cup one time, we got Jerry the pro to bump their match a half-hour later.

Then Rich and Pete started getting better and better scores...Rich brought Pete beers from the grill deck when they broke "90" the first time, and when Weisbard did it his first time, cigars in the caddie yard.  The scores became lower and lower and for Sheingold, 80 was in sight...but he couldn't get over the hump. (Remember, this fellow [who looked like a debonair Jackie Gleason] was shooting 97-105 with four Xs on the card, not three years earlier.) then one glorious day in 2002, Sheingold lay 75 shots right in front of the 18th green, 10 yards of troubleless turf and 4 shots to do it, when Pete handed Rich his "Texas Wedge" putter, and hugged him...saying "Rich, not even YOU could fuck this up." Sheingold three putted for 78.  Think about Nicklaus hugging Jackie after the 86 Masters and you may understand what we witnessed from the back porch of the bag room that day.  Pete could have floated home and died right then.

A year later in 2003, June came along and because Weisbard was out of town, Sheingold did not play in the Governors cup tourney either.  And without his regular loop, I was happy to send Pete with another group which included Michael Bolton the singer and the CNBC -defense attorney Mickey Sherman, who were on a cart and two opponents - one of whom lost his son seven years earlier in 1996 TWA smith Point disaster, walking.  Because Pete always forecaddied on #1, he never really glad-handed Bolton and Sherman on the tee, he just grabbed their putters and headed out to forecaddy.  They played #1 and when Pete put the flag back after it was halved, he extended his hand to Bolton, taking his putter back from him and making a proper introduction, "I'm Pete."

Those are the last words Pete spoke, as he when he reached the forecaddy spot on the par 4 2nd hole, he dropped dead from an aneurysm.  Age 54.

The superintendent, another WW caddie Tommy (who Pete first trained was Tommy was 12 years old in the 60s) and I were on him with defibbs and CPR within 90 seconds of his collapse, but as the EMT's who showed up only 6 minutes later told us, no medicine in the world was going to reverse what happened - it was his time. Rich got wind of what happened from somebody playing at the club and was on the back porch with me and the other top contingent of caddies, eyes as red our ours, sobs as loud as ours, and perhaps the most heart-broken man you have ever seen.

It was a shell-shock of the first order to the culture of the club that summer.  Four days later I gave Pete's eulogy to a throng of probably 250 people in the cramped funeral home, about 60-80 of whom were members, some may have had Pete five times total by my reckoning, but they were there.

On the next Saturday, six days after Pete had died, I was still in a daze...I was aimlessly driving around on the course - actually, hiding from everyone in the trees if the truth be told, I was emotionally spent.  Richie was playing somewhere on the course and I just wanted to talk to him or be near him, life was returning to normal, going on and it was all happening a little too fast for me.  I knew he was somewhere around the 7th or 8th hole and I'd figure to catch up to him at Rockrimmon's par 3 9th hole over water...

I'll let my story "An Inch from Belief" pick it up there...i n the next post

cheers

vk



"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2013, 09:11:42 AM »
 ;D :D ;D :'(


V.K.

Just one word for that story ....beautiful....thank you for sharing !

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2013, 10:09:40 AM »
V.K. - You just made my day.  Thanks for your wonderful essay.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2013, 10:27:57 AM »
VK- great story, and very well told.  Unfortunately, for every Pete there's a baker's dozen of Shivas' dreaded pro jocks.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2013, 10:31:10 AM »
Years ago my wife and I played Dar Es Salaam Red Course in Morocco. The pro shop wanted us to take a caddie.  That was fine with us.  The caddies carried single bags so we each had our own.  Neither of the caddies spoke English. We didn't speak their language either.  Much of the round was very quiet except the occasional "Good shot Tommy," from my wife.  After about 10 holes of "Good shot Tommy," the caddies picked up on it.  Regardless of who hit the good shot the caddies would sing out, "Good shot Tommy."  To this day we will say. "Good shot Tommy," to whoever hits a good shot.  Most of our friends know the story and applaud a good shot with the same chorus of "Good shot Tommy!"
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2013, 10:41:47 AM »
Spread the wealth apparently is a NIMBY principle.

If I were wealthy and cost was never an issue then I could see taking a caddie when available as a special treat. But, alas, I am not wealthy... so there is little to "spread." I would much rather give $100 to Autism Research than compensate someone for carrying my golf clubs.

Michael, Where are you playing that requires a mandatory "caddy fee" of that magnitude? Probably a great course. You wouldn't play at a mediocre course more than once, that forced you to take a caddy. Would you?  At the great clubs, if they want to have a flourishing caddy program, the fee you're paying helps them defray their costs. It provides much needed employment for somebody, and, when done properly accentuates your experience. It's part of the cost to play all these great places we are exposed to.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2013, 10:55:45 AM »
It's a problem to the small fraction of golfers who have an attachment to the idea and the institution of caddies.

In other words, not really so much a problem as a niche concern. However, to all appearances that small fraction of golfers are overrepresented about 100:1 on this forum as compared to the population of golfers at large.

Brent,

 I think it's deeper than that because it's one of those small things that make the big ones work. Caddies are part of the fabric of golf's rules and History. Without them in the future, the sport will lose out in the numbers of newer golfers introduced to the sport. Caddy programs ensure the possibility of passing down proper etiquette, protocols and procedures, to a next generation. A major feeder tributary to golf will be gone forever.     
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2013, 10:56:31 AM »
I fully understand it is not comparing apples to apples but...

Many contemplating joining a private club can't comprehend paying the initial deposit, monthly dues, additional costs for events, food & drink, etc. and yet they still have to pay a dollar amount every time they play for the caddie (even if they prefer to walk or take a pull cart).  To make matters worse, the amount is roughly equivalent to what they were probably paying for a round at their local high-end daily fee.  The value proposition just doesn't make sense to many prospective members.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 10:59:38 AM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Brent Hutto

Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2013, 11:00:33 AM »
Adam,

I'm pretty sure if you went to play a putatively great golf course, only to find they were for some reason watering the living bejeebers out of every inch of turf and rendering it a slow mess to play, you would walk away complaining that you'd really like to experience the course in good condition without the experience being ruined by the soft conditions.

I feel pretty much the same about having to hand my clubs over to somebody I've never met, who is also probably splitting time by carrying some other guy's bag as well. It takes me out of my rhythm, it makes the entire round a chatty overly "busy" experience because now I'm dealing with an intermediary instead of my a couple of other fellow golfers. In most cases, it results in my much less enjoyable day than I'd have had toting my own bag.

What seems to get lost in this eternal caddie discussion is the fact that some people would not voluntarily choose to use that service and it's nothing to do with cost or with stirring stories of great bonding experience between players and caddies or with anything else except for how we enjoy playing the game. So that's my two cents worth. It ain't always about the money and don't be so quick to assume that any round of golf could be made better with a caddie involved. Certainly not true for my part.

Brent Hutto

Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2013, 11:06:30 AM »
It's a problem to the small fraction of golfers who have an attachment to the idea and the institution of caddies.

In other words, not really so much a problem as a niche concern. However, to all appearances that small fraction of golfers are overrepresented about 100:1 on this forum as compared to the population of golfers at large.

Brent,

 I think it's deeper than that because it's one of those small things that make the big ones work. Caddies are part of the fabric of golf's rules and History. Without them in the future, the sport will lose out in the numbers of newer golfers introduced to the sport. Caddy programs ensure the possibility of passing down proper etiquette, protocols and procedures, to a next generation. A major feeder tributary to golf will be gone forever.     

Sorry Adam, you are inflating that way out of proportion. What percentage of persons playing golf today do you think were a) brought into the game by being a caddie and b) would not have otherwise played golf at all? Are you imagining it is even 1% of the golfer who will tee it up somewhere today? I can't believe it would be that much.

In fact, outside of this forum (back to my original point) I have never in my life met a golfer who came to the game through caddying. Or I should say, not as far as I'm aware. There's bound to be an exception somewhere along the line. But the golfers I meet outside of this forum either think "Pebble Beach" or "Caddyshack" or "PGA Tour" when you say the word caddie. It is foreign to the experience of all but a tiny fraction of golfers.

I accept that isn't true if ones belongs to certain high-$$$ private clubs in certain metropolitan areas far from where I live. But its a big world out here and elite clubs are just a niche within that world. A niche, as I said, over-represented greatly on this forum.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caddies: Modern-Day Elevator Operators?
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2013, 11:40:24 AM »
I fully understand it is not comparing apples to apples but...

Many contemplating joining a private club can't comprehend paying the initial deposit, monthly dues, additional costs for events, food & drink, etc. and yet they still have to pay a dollar amount every time they play for the caddie (even if they prefer to walk or take a pull cart).  To make matters worse, the amount is roughly equivalent to what they were probably paying for a round at their local high-end daily fee.  The value proposition just doesn't make sense to many prospective members.

Geoff,

Private clubs in Major metropolitan areas are in no way shape or form a value proposition.  Some people are willing to pay for the ability to play a round of golf on a pristine course without tee-times in 4 hours.  If one doesn't factor in the cost of mandatory caddies at such clubs in the cost equation, then one deserves what one gets:  a luxury item that he can't afford. 
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

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