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Randy Thompson

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2013, 12:20:34 PM »
Too bad we don´t know where each team finished in the compitition, wouldn´t surprise me if they finished eighth. The entire process was well handled and by offering to live on site seperated Gill from the rest of the pack. His PGA connections and relationships were another major factor that went in his favor. The past serves as a learning tool for the present, get over it Gary and move on!

Lou_Duran

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2013, 12:32:12 PM »
I have always liked Gary Player, but sometimes his competitive juices get him in trouble and he goes a little too far with his comments.
Jeff, I think you are correct that Gary thought he should get it based on his travel and playing experience but it was awarded based on design.

As one with some proclivity to stick a foot in my mouth, may I ask, who amongst us has not sinned?

The linked article concludes with Player saying:  "I'm so excited about Brazil getting the Olympics and having golf in the Olympics, which is bigger than my personal feeling, golf is bigger than my personal feeling, your country is bigger than your personal feeling. It will be very nice and it will be a successful Olympic Games in this country."

In the political spirit of today, shouldn't we aspire for "balance" and "fairness" even when it comes to someone whose style or perspective might be different than ours?  If Gary Player is a "doosh bag", what can most of us possibly be?

Regarding his record as an architect, his website notes over 300 courses on five continents.  Now, I know that some here have extremely low regard for the intelligence and business savvy of course owners, developers, and most architects not named Coore, Doak, Hanse, and Nuzzo (  ;D  ), but perhaps there might be a fairly good reason other than Mr. Player's resume as a player which explains how he might have fooled so many principals.  Admittedly, I don't have much experience with his courses, but the one at The Woodlands in Houston is probably my favorite at this wonderful community.

Lastly, while I find Jeff Brauer's comments regarding presentations and the bid process very interesting and insightful, I have doubts that Mr. Hanse's presentation was the only one that knocked it out of the ballpark.  Nor do I necessarily believe that the decision to locate nearby was the deal maker.  Given that all finalists have demonstrable records of success- notwithstanding the unique preferences of GCA.com opiners- perhaps another reason leading to the award involved the ruckus that selecting one of several big names might have caused.  Would Player have been more or less perturbed if Nicklaus, Palmer, or Norman got the gig?  Might there have been a bigger stink?   


Joe Bausch

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2013, 12:43:56 PM »
Time to lighten up this Player thread with my lone experience with him, this posted before but will be new to many of you:

I've had one GP experience and it was a beaut.  2003 SR PGA Champ at Aronimink, 1st round, I get him, Floyd, and Kite to score for.  I had heard that GP could be interesting after a round in the scorers tent, and I was ready.  RF had played poorly and was outta there before I could sit down and wasn't interested in triple-checking his score w/ mine.  TK was super polite, and after reading off the scores, again thanked me for volunteering.  Then GP proceeds to have me read the scores for the front, then the back, then the back again, then the front again, the front in reverse, back in reverse, then from memory he recalls each score himself, etc, etc.  TK has decided to stay in the trailer and experience the whole thing.  When finally done checking his score every way under creation, GP goes on this long speech to Kite about why he does this relating to being DQed in a GGO round years ago.  "So Tom, the last thing I do before leaving the scorer's tent is make darn sure I haven't signed for a wrong score", he says.  Then Tom quips, "Well, that is very nice Gary.  But I would suggest the last thing you do today before leaving the scorer's tent is zip up your fly".  GP had gone to the player's restroom right after the round and had forgotten to zip up.  Priceless.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Garland Bayley

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2013, 12:47:21 PM »
...
Quoting:  
The thing that upset me for not getting it was the fact that I've been to Brazil so many times, I've played in tournaments here, met so many people, and I thought that would count," Player said. "But it didn't. There is obviously a lot of politics in these things, so you move on."
...


So his reasoning is I politic'd the most. But I lost because I was out politic'd?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

jeffwarne

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2013, 12:55:02 PM »
Time to lighten up this Player thread with my lone experience with him, this posted before but will be new to many of you:

I've had one GP experience and it was a beaut.  2003 SR PGA Champ at Aronimink, 1st round, I get him, Floyd, and Kite to score for.  I had heard that GP could be interesting after a round in the scorers tent, and I was ready.  RF had played poorly and was outta there before I could sit down and wasn't interested in triple-checking his score w/ mine.  TK was super polite, and after reading off the scores, again thanked me for volunteering.  Then GP proceeds to have me read the scores for the front, then the back, then the back again, then the front again, the front in reverse, back in reverse, then from memory he recalls each score himself, etc, etc.  TK has decided to stay in the trailer and experience the whole thing.  When finally done checking his score every way under creation, GP goes on this long speech to Kite about why he does this relating to being DQed in a GGO round years ago.  "So Tom, the last thing I do before leaving the scorer's tent is make darn sure I haven't signed for a wrong score", he says.  Then Tom quips, "Well, that is very nice Gary.  But I would suggest the last thing you do today before leaving the scorer's tent is zip up your fly".  GP had gone to the player's restroom right after the round and had forgotten to zip up.  Priceless.

That is priceless.
Tom Kite has a great sense of humor.
He was working with Jim Mclean at the time, and he related to me the story of playing with Davis Love at Greensboro and Davis is killing every drive 50 yards by him, and running away with tournament.
This was the first year "you 'da man" was being screamed.
Davis makes a bomb for another birdie somewhere around 14, steps up to 15 and crushes one, Like clockwork, at impact "YOU 'DA MAN!!!!!"
is belted out.
Kite now in second, but about 6 shots back is doing the math on what he needs to tie or win and is sure he's still right there in it.
He steps up and rips it as hard as he can make his little persimmon headed driver go, and on cue the guy goes "YOU......playing with,,, 'da man"
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 12:57:44 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Garland Bayley

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2013, 01:00:34 PM »
...
We also have to recall that Gil offered to live on site, which was a big factor if I recall.  And, with the cap on fees, and the delays, it looks like the winning bid will lose more money than all the losing bids for the work!  Gary should be ecstatic.
...


Also, members of the committee professed to be very impressed with Castle Stuart. Wonder what course GP could dazzle them with?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2013, 01:37:20 PM »
TPC Jasna Polana?  :)

Niall C

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2013, 01:56:08 PM »
http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/gary-player-expresses-disappointment-over-missing-out-on-rio-s-olympic-golf-course-design-1.102610





Player said he thought it played into his favour the fact that he has travelled the world as a player.

"I've been travelling for 60 years and I've been to all of these countries that are involved in the Olympic Games. I just felt that I would get it," the 77-year-old South African said. "And they give it to a man who's... well, I don't want to say anything, I just felt it was an advantage for us. That's what I thought. But I was wrong, move on."
---------------------



 everything was OK when he thought the politics he brought to the table (i.e.his worldwide travel -"felt it was an advantage for us" )favored him getting the job.

Perhaps they "gave it to a man who" they thought would committ to being there(Gil's presentation)
Not saying that's the best criteria, and we can disagree on who would've built the best course, but it sounds like that was important to the committee, and seems like LESS politics than "visiting every country involved".

Still gotta respect Gary Player though-one of my favorites to watch,even if his comments occasionally gets him in hot water.


Jeff

Totally agree. Looks like he was relying on politics to give him the job.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2013, 01:57:20 PM »
Personally, I thought giving this to Gil was the greatest decision ever for golf course architecture and I was absolutely delighted. It was a giant step back to GCA being seen as a profession rather than something pro golfers do for fun when they retire.

Ally

Care to explain that one. Seems a rather over the top statement.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2013, 02:10:01 PM »
...
We also have to recall that Gil offered to live on site, which was a big factor if I recall.  And, with the cap on fees, and the delays, it looks like the winning bid will lose more money than all the losing bids for the work!  Gary should be ecstatic.
...


Also, members of the committee professed to be very impressed with Castle Stuart. Wonder what course GP could dazzle them with?


Yes it was Peter Dawson that complimented Castle Stuart but as everyone knows, you can't believe a word that man says  ;)

Niall

Garland Bayley

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2013, 02:11:08 PM »
Personally, I thought giving this to Gil was the greatest decision ever for golf course architecture and I was absolutely delighted. It was a giant step back to GCA being seen as a profession rather than something pro golfers do for fun when they retire.

Ally

Care to explain that one. Seems a rather over the top statement.

Niall

perhaps you are thinking a step back is going backwards, whereas in this case, it means forward progress.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Niall C

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2013, 02:17:40 PM »
Final comment from me on the subject (promise !) but was at a golf dinner last year and the speaker was an old pro, recently retired. He recounted the story of playing a practice round with GP at the British Seniors which was being played that year on a well known and highly rated links. GP spent the whole round slagging of the course, complaining about the blind shots, the bounce on the fairways, the conditioning etc etc. At the end of the round, just as they were coming off the course, GP spots several R&A guys talking to committee men from the host club. GP makes a bee-line for the group and starts gushing about how good the course is, how the condition is wonderful and all delivered without one word of criticism.

I suspect that was the type of previous experience that he thought would get him the design job for Rio.

Niall

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2013, 02:19:43 PM »
Mr. Player could use a dose of the advice Donald Ross gave Ellis Maples. In a letter dated 24 May 1927, Ross stressed the importance of character to Ellis:

“Give consideration to others, do some good, however small, every day of your life. Act as a gentleman under all circumstances. However humble our work may be, we all have our little niche in this world’s work.”
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Niall C

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2013, 02:26:31 PM »
eh, disregard my last post about final comment.

GJ

I understand the gist of Ally's comments, I just think he's way overstating the impact. I think everyone understands that the nuts and bolts of the design is done by gca's and that the golf pro is there to provide the gloss. Even the average golfer has an inkling of that if he even considers it at all. Therefore I really don't see Hanse's appointment having much impact that way at all if any.

Niall

Lou_Duran

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2013, 03:04:04 PM »
Final comment from me on the subject (promise !) but was at a golf dinner last year and the speaker was an old pro, recently retired. He recounted the story of playing a practice round with GP at the British Seniors which was being played that year on a well known and highly rated links. GP spent the whole round slagging of the course, complaining about the blind shots, the bounce on the fairways, the conditioning etc etc. At the end of the round, just as they were coming off the course, GP spots several R&A guys talking to committee men from the host club. GP makes a bee-line for the group and starts gushing about how good the course is, how the condition is wonderful and all delivered without one word of criticism.

I suspect that was the type of previous experience that he thought would get him the design job for Rio.

Niall

Another side to the story:

A former golf partner and a then outstanding amateur in Columbus related to me what a great man Player was.  He was a young boy when he was assigned Player's bag at the PGA championship.  And though he was familiar with golf, he was a neophyte as a caddie and had barely the size to carry the bag and keep up.  Among his favorite stories was the time early on when he had cleaned Player's ball on the green and was about to toss it back to him.  Player doesn't put his hands up, instead motioning the caddie over, and privately, softly saying something to the effect "Tom, never throw the ball to me.  My hands are my living and we can't risk injuring them.  Always place the ball and clubs in my hand gently."

Tom grew up to be an emotional, somewhat hot-headed guy who was unafraid to opine candidly about people and things.  He had only good things to say about Gary Player, including that though Player didn't finish near the top, nor that as a caddie he was little more than a mule, he was paid very well, well above the then going scale.

I would put Gary Player's contribution to golf, to his country, and to physical fitness up with anyone's.  Great advice from Mr. Ross.  Gary Player needs not apologize.         

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2013, 04:07:51 PM »
Mike Nuzzo and Lou Duran,

I do know statistically that committees really end up favoring one presentation greatly, maybe two.  No matter how much work goes in, the frame of reference gets narrowed up quite a bit.  And it is winner take all, so they aren't concerned with win-place -show.

Some of it also has to do with timing.  Maybe Gary was just the third pro in a row to expound on his future contributions, and it struck them as very ho-hum rather than a strong point.

I think Gil was pretty early in the process from memory.  Once they were wowed by his, who ever went before him was out the door, even if their presentation was 99% of what Gil's was - its an all or nothing deal.  In any two day process, only one team moves forward from day one, and I have been told the film crews or other observers there said Gil was the only guy they wanted from day 1.  So teams 4-6 are basically interviewing against Gil, and then, team 4 had to be better than Gil, and team five had to be better than either Gil or team 4, whoever was the winner.  In any case, team six was still going against one team, not five others.  Of course, that is by consensus.  I am sure there was a holdout juror favoring one other team, or at least, there usually are.  In the end, the majority must rule.

I made my comments about Tom's presentations based on his comments here, and also from memory.   He may very well have been down when he posted (I seem to recall a few, "yeah, we covered that, too) type comments.  Allowing for post interview depression,  (believe me, it happens) and knowing he worked very hard I suspect he was in the vicinity of 90-99% of Gil's. As Lou says, they have all been to this rodeo before.   Heck, he might have been 105% in your eyes or mine, but of course, only the committee eyes mattered.  As Lester says, sometimes one just connects better than the others.  Heck, not sometime, every time in one of these situations.

I am sure all teams tried to cover the basic points.  What I was trying to convey is that Gil obviously covered them in a way that intrigued and satisfied the committee better.  Sometimes, only a slightly different twist is all it takes (or, from my experience, making it a simple and clear point.)  For example, saying you will save the frogs (or whatever) and posting an earth day poster isn't nearly as effective as showing a pond (and frog) from their site while explaining what you will do.  

Committees are all different, but they in general go on about the big picture and some little, unpredictable details.  Sometimes, they internally want you to spend 40% of your time on one hot topic, and 30% on two others, and you pick the wrong one to expound on longer.  The difference is just that small.  Gil could go to the next one, say the same things, and lose by a mile because it wasn't what that committee wanted to hear, and he just didn't connect with them the same.  It's a real crapshoot, and of course, blaming politics is just easier than admitting maybe you guessed wrong, didn't quite do enough research, made the wrong call, etc.  Don't ask me how I know this.....

So, they probably all made very good presentations, but by definition, the other five top out as triples, not home runs.  It's a funny process, just not one that is funny enough to laugh at, especially for the five losing finalists.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 11:29:25 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve Okula

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2013, 04:27:09 PM »
I was employed as a site supervisor by the Gary Player Design Company from 1990 to 1993. I was involved in projects in South Africa, Spain, and the Philippines.  I have never been better treated by an employer in my life. In my personal experience with Gary Player he was never any less than a perfect gentleman with impeccable manners.

Say what you will regarding the merits of his designs, and I allow there may be room for criticism, as with any architect, but in my view the man is slighted for no apparent reason.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2013, 05:52:51 PM »
Jeff

My point was how could you know if Gil's was better - not how could you guess based on your experiences.
You don't know, unless you've seen both presentations.
Have you seen both?

Why do you think I helped?
I was not on any team.
Please remove your comment about me helping.

cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2013, 06:27:50 PM »

A former golf partner and a then outstanding amateur in Columbus related to me what a great man Player was.  He was a young boy when he was assigned Player's bag at the PGA championship.  And though he was familiar with golf, he was a neophyte as a caddie and had barely the size to carry the bag and keep up.  Among his favorite stories was the time early on when he had cleaned Player's ball on the green and was about to toss it back to him.  Player doesn't put his hands up, instead motioning the caddie over, and privately, softly saying something to the effect "Tom, never throw the ball to me.  My hands are my living and we can't risk injuring them.  Always place the ball and clubs in my hand gently."        

What a diva. He needs to grow a pair. Does he walk around all day with oven mitts on his hands ala George Costanza?

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2013, 07:06:12 PM »
Dan - Amen.  I wonder if surgeons say the same thing to their caddies?  Of course, a surgeon is 100x more important to us as society than Mr. Player.

Lyne Morrison

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2013, 07:16:54 PM »

I thought the selection of the Gil Hanse team was meaningful for a few reasons:

The perception that a high profile pro golfer is necessary to bring success to a project has been challenged.

A more equitable and sustainable model of golf will be provided global exposure.

The inclusion of a female on the design team is noteworthy.

I see all the above as a potentially significant step forward for golf.

Lyne

Michael Blake

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2013, 07:29:00 PM »
My vote for ridiculous thread of the week.

Will E

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2013, 07:32:43 PM »
Does anyone think there could be more involved in the selection process than the presentation ?
Quality of work could count.
That would explain Gary's frustration.


V. Kmetz

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2013, 07:41:33 PM »
We once heard Gary Player at a Pro-am getting after his caddie a bit from the putting green to the first tee. It made us laugh.

"Cumin Jinny, git to kip up.  Itz mis beh all that kikka killa and wit' bread in yer dit."

Translation:

C'mon Johnny, got to keep up!  It must be all that Coca-cola and white bread in your diet."

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Joe Bausch

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Re: Gary Player - Sour grapes over Olympic design job
« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2013, 07:55:53 PM »
We once heard Gary Player at a Pro-am getting after his caddie a bit from the putting green to the first tee. It made us laugh.

"Cumin Jinny, git to kip up.  Itz mis beh all that kikka killa and wit' bread in yer dit."

Translation:

C'mon Johnny, got to keep up!  It must be all that Coca-cola and white bread in your diet."

cheers

vk

Goodness VK.  That was special.   :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

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