Opinions on Punchbowl?

[Keith Phillips]

Pat mentioned the punchbowl green on 1 of 4 at Montclair, my home club.  This is a short-ish par 5, dogleg left opener for the 4th nine - a strong drive allows some golfers to try to reach in two, but most members lay up to 8i-PW range.  The green is two-tiered and generally slopes away from the player, making it difficult to hold.  This subject is timely, as a fellow member recently suggested that we consider maintaining the inner slopes of the punchbowl at a fairway cut, a la Fishers - we currently have a typical fringe and then green-side rough climbing the banks.  I think it would 'look and play great' if we could maintain at fairway height, but the banks are fairly steep and it may be a maintenance nightmare.  Will be on the agenda for the Green Committee this season!

[Bill Brightly]

Keith,

"Nightmare" is extreme, no?

[Keith Phillips]

Only extreme for those who have to man the mowers 

We have a steep property, but I can't think of any comparably abrupt slopes that we currently mow at fairway height - it's obviously doable as others have shown, but I'm not sure what the time/cost implications would be.  We have also been discussing adding chipping areas to certain green complexes, and similar considerations arise.  Like many clubs, we are focused on optimizing firm and fast conditions in a difficult budgeting environment - every incremental 'neat project' has to be paid for.

[Jim_Kennedy]

You need a Ventrac.  

http://ventrac.com/markets/golf/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7HaG03-Jgg

[Patrick_Mucci]

Keith,

# 1 on # 4 is one of the unique punchbowls of all time, with that two tier green.

How close to the front slope behind the right side bunker is the green mowed to ?

Travis,

Have you played # 1 at # 4 at Montclair and # 15 at Sleepy Hollow ?

[Keith Phillips]

That Ventrac looks neat, and I'm sure we could put it to use at MGC, but likely not in the punchbowl as those slopes are definitely >30 degrees.

Pat, the area beyond the bunker is the area that would most benefit from closer mowing - that expanse is 'all rough' currently and is 20'+ I believe - will take a closer look this weekend.

[Jim_Kennedy]

OK, try this one. 

http://www.slope-mower.com/products/spider-ild-02/

[ChipOat]

Jim K:

The slope of the ground on the left side (seen from the fairway) of NGLA's punchblowl is steep enough, and the ground firm enough, that, with fairway length grass, even a pitch will bounce right either onto the green or just short (which leaves no easy shot).

Patrick:

The late, great? Timmons used to say "always approach the green from the left side - no matter what".  I have often (mis) played a shot out to the right of that green and had it stay there - which is even worse than being short for someone of my meager skills.  Therefore, I speak from unfortunate experience that a shot to the right is not an auto-feed to the green.  And that, my good friend, is a FACT.  Timmons was right.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Chip,
In the photo it appears that all the grass between the white and yellow arrows is cut to fairway height and outside of the yellow arrows is the first cut of rough. When it's at that length on the sides a shot will still have enough energy to carom off the bank and toward the green, as you said.



In the photo of the Punchbowl at Cape Kidnappers the height also looks like first cut of rough after a narrow collar, similar to NGLA, but the rear of the putting green appears to be slanted steeply back toward the center.

Once again, the grass between the white and yellow arrows is fairway height and outside the yellow arrows it appears to be first cut of rough.


 
I think that's cool, the player who slightly overestimates his shot may see his ball come back to the flag, the player who significantly misjudges the weight pays the price of probably hanging up in the first cut of rough.

I may be completely wrong, but shouldn't most of the salvation from a punchbowl come from the green itself, with diminishing returns from the surrounds as the quality of the shot diminishes?
      
That's what makes me 'prefer' the longer grass on the banks.    
    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

The late, great? Timmons used to say "always approach the green from the left side - no matter what".  I have often (mis) played a shot out to the right of that green and had it stay there - which is even worse than being short for someone of my meager skills.  Therefore, I speak from unfortunate experience that a shot to the right is not an auto-feed to the green.  And that, my good friend, is a FACT.  Timmons was right.

Chip,

I see the problem.

The problem is the difference between my margin of error and your margin of error.
Look at the photo below.
If you're hitting it right and it's not feeding toward the center, you're hitting it outside of the footpad of the punchbowl


What's not shown in the picture are the bunkers set into the steep slope on the left of the green (right in the photo)
While hitting to the left may produce better results, with your margin of error, I'd be terrified of those bunkers 
There's also a bunker wide to the right of the green, that I've never been in.
Perhaps that's why your approaches, hit right, never make it to the green.

Will you be playing in the Singles this year ?
If so, let's have a Southsider while sitting on # 17 tee and looking down on and discussing # 16 green and Timmons.l

[Patrick_Mucci]

In the photo of the Punchbowl at Cape Kidnappers the height also looks like first cut of rough after a narrow collar, similar to NGLA, but the rear of the putting green appears to be slanted steeply back toward the center.

Once again, the grass between the white and yellow arrows is fairway height and outside the yellow arrows it appears to be first cut of rough.


 
I think that's cool, the player who slightly overestimates his shot may see his ball come back to the flag, the player who significantly misjudges the weight pays the price of probably hanging up in the first cut of rough.

I may be completely wrong, but shouldn't most of the salvation from a punchbowl come from the green itself, with diminishing returns from the surrounds as the quality of the shot diminishes?

I don't believe so.
But, then again, there are different types of punchbowls.
Some have flat greens, others concave greens.
Where you have a flat green, the banks can and should be used.
Where you have a concave green, there might be some merit to the green and only the green assisting your ball, but, I prefer it when
punchbowl surrounds also redirect the ball.

The worst part of a punchbowl is having your ball remain in the tall grass.
Then, you're facing a shot where the ball almost always can't be stopped anywhere close to the hole with your recovery.
      
That's what makes me 'prefer' the longer grass on the banks.  

That's what makes horse races, I feel just the opposite, but, then again, you have to maintain it. 
    

[Jim_Kennedy]

In the photo of the Punchbowl at Cape Kidnappers the height also looks like first cut of rough after a narrow collar, similar to NGLA, but the rear of the putting green appears to be slanted steeply back toward the center.

Once again, the grass between the white and yellow arrows is fairway height and outside the yellow arrows it appears to be first cut of rough.


 
I think that's cool, the player who slightly overestimates his shot may see his ball come back to the flag, the player who significantly misjudges the weight pays the price of probably hanging up in the first cut of rough.

I may be completely wrong, but shouldn't most of the salvation from a punchbowl come from the green itself, with diminishing returns from the surrounds as the quality of the shot diminishes?

I don't believe so.
But, then again, there are different types of punchbowls.
Some have flat greens, others concave greens.
Where you have a flat green, the banks can and should be used.
Where you have a concave green, there might be some merit to the green and only the green assisting your ball, but, I prefer it when
punchbowl surrounds also redirect the ball.

The worst part of a punchbowl is having your ball remain in the tall grass.
Then, you're facing a shot where the ball almost always can't be stopped anywhere close to the hole with your recovery.
      
That's what makes me 'prefer' the longer grass on the banks.  

That's what makes horse races, I feel just the opposite, but, then again, you have to maintain it.
    

Many of the photos of the 'visual' punchbowls (as you called them ) that I posted have long grass on the banks growing down to the level of the green surround, or just slightly above it. That presents a problem to the golfer, but a recovery shot can usually be stopped close to the hole because those greens are flatter, and not concave. So I don't agree with the statement that: "Where you have a flat green, the banks can and should be used."

The more bowl shaped greens at NGLA and Cape Kidnappers have small margins of fairway grass (as I showed) and then make the transition to a first-cut height of rough immediately thereafter. I do agree with you when you say that"Where you have a concave green, there might be some merit to the green and only the green assisting your ball, but, I prefer it when punchbowl surrounds also redirect the ball", but I do think those holes look and work best when the rough begins a mowers width from the fairway cut, as suggested in the photos of NGLA and Cape Kidnappers.

Best wishes,
Mo & Ron  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Have you seen an optometrist lately ?


The 16th green is surrounded by fairway by a wide margin with the exception being the steep bank.

Thus, not only the green, but the entire surrounding area acts to direct the ball toward the center and those surrounding areas are maintained as fairway.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Any strong opinions about the proper height of grass on the inside slope of a punchbowl? I can't recall how high the grass is maintained at NGLA on the left side.Is the grass high enough there to keep the ball on the slope?Or will it roll back down to the green?
Our course is a typical parkland course. A 3' wide first cut lines all fairways and greens before you reach the thick bluegrass rough. We've had some discussion about the inside of the punchbowl, about 8 feet high, maybe 12 paces. Should it be fairway height all the way up, allowing most shots to roll back on to the putting surface? Or a much smaller amount of fairway with rough that will hold the ball and penalize those who misjudged or mishit their approach?

Pat,

Bill's original question was how to maintain the grass on the sloped areas of a punchbowl. It's plain to see the steep bank that's to the left of NGLA's green, just as it's plain to see that the grass on that bank is mowed at rough height, not fairway. From Chip's and your knowledge of how the hole plays we learned that a ball hit left of the green onto that hill will, within reason, carom off toward the green even though the grass is high.
It's also plain to see in that photo that much of the area is not as severely sloped as the left side, and shorter, fairway height grass is used there.
In the other photos posted you'll see similar things, the entries to the punchbowls are mowed at fairway height, the steeper slopes are mowed at rough height (except FI, which mows all the way up the bank), some of them have the narrow strip of fairway grass between the steep slope and the green, some of them do not.

Many different set-ups, but I'd be happy when playing any one of them.  

[Travis Dewire]

@Patrick

No never played them.

If you short side yourself and are caught on the slope of a punchbowl, recovery should be difficult.

If you long side yourself and are caught on the slope of a punchbowl, it is an easier chip shot in which your ball has less time to be airborne, and allows a more chip and run shot to be played.

I would agree that not all punchbowls should be maintained the same and should be determined on a case by case basis.

I do however think there should under no circumstances a "golden rule" in which a punchbowl needs to be maintained.

I also would argue that those two statements above, do not challenge any historical design principals, and if anything, are only made stronger by golden age ideals

[corey miller]

Travis

Two points, one an opinion and one an observation.

IMO. the stupidest shot in golf is the "short side" play from high rough (rough which arguably should be short grass) where the player (knowing any play to the  apron or green will not work) must aim/land the ball in the same (high) rough in the hopes that the ball will luckily bounce out and stay near the hole.

As for a punchbowl green and being short sided? I am not sure the stroke into the green should be analyzed in these terms (short/long) as a "good" shot to the middle will often produce and easier putt than a play to the "short" side which if pulled off (and without the high rough) will often produce a longer put that the "safe" play.

Also, The only reason one could be short sided is because of high rough and an IMO improperly maintained punchbowl.  Part of the joy of the punchbowl is the play in the basic general direction (many have posts as directional markers)...Do we want golfers to attempt to ascertain where the pin is also on the 200 yard shot so they can play a "better" shot and not be short sided because of stupid rough or do we want golfers taking a quickly taking a wack in the basic direction of the horizon?

A post works because it is a basic directional for a punchbowl green that is being properly maintained, grow high rough, and worry about some "short-sided" problem and you might as well get rid of the concept, the poll/marker and allow the golfer to walk up the 200 yards to figure out where the pin is?  Do we want that?

Thinking about this I do have a question... is the fact that there are basic markers for direction at National,Fisher's Island, Sleepy Hollow,Yale answer the question of how they were supposed to be maintained.  Surely none of these basic directionals would have been acceptable is the shot needed to be played to .25 or a .5 of the skyline (from 200 yards) rather than the full skyline.

[Patrick_Mucci]

@Patrick

No never played them.

If you short side yourself and are caught on the slope of a punchbowl, recovery should be difficult.

WHY ?

Isn't the inherent purpose of a Punchbowl to be forgiving by providing greater margins of error vis a vis the landform and architectural configuration.

If you long side yourself and are caught on the slope of a punchbowl, it is an easier chip shot in which your ball has less time to be airborne, and allows a more chip and run shot to be played.

"Easier" ?  You mean easier than getting hung up on the short side, but, the shot remains a very difficult shot, especially since metal spikes have been banned.   The slopes on Montclair's Punchbowl are very steep making any shot very, very difficult

I would agree that not all punchbowls should be maintained the same and should be determined on a case by case basis.
Shouldn't that case by case basis be determined by the footpad and surrounds of the Punchbowl.

I do however think there should under no circumstances a "golden rule" in which a punchbowl needs to be maintained.
Doesn't the architect determine that ?
Doesn't the architect conceptualize how he intends the Punchbowl to be designed, maintained and played ?

I also would argue that those two statements above, do not challenge any historical design principals, and if anything, are only made stronger by golden age ideals

And I would maintain that those "golden age" ideals are often frustrated by maintain acne practices other than the architect intended.

If there's one thing we've learned over the years, it's that greens have shrunk and lost their original lines and intended play.
Were punchbowls exempt ?

[Travis Dewire]

The same way in which a short sided shot on an elevated green would be a penalty. A miss-play of strategy.

Yes, a long sided chip will always be easier than a short sided one. I have no idea what you mean by "metal spikes no longer being in use"

Wouldn't a bounce, regardless of the grass length, that maintains your ball in the area of its landing, rather than move it farther away from its landing, be easier? I do not think that a 2 to 2.25" cut around a punchbowl's banks, hardly disrupts the integrity of the bowl and its design features.

I disagree that footpad and green surrounds should be the only determining factor. I think you could justify hole length as an additional determining factor. No question.

Yes I would agree it is the architects decision ultimately on how he wants the green he builds to be maintained. However, I don't need to say anything further down that road to you Patrick, you know what happens.

[Jud_T]

Give it a Brazilian.  Only a guy with a scorecard and pencil lodged in his rectum would advocate rough that would stop a ball on a punchbowl's banks.  Go see Tamarack #11 for reference.

[Sean_A]

Punchbowls are not all of the same ilk.  There are many factors which contribute to how short the grass on the inside slopes of a punchbowl should be.  For instance, if its a short par 4, I have no issue with short grass front, left and right.  However, to the rear I don't mind longer grass not so far up the slope - this set-up calls for a measure of accuracy.  The biggest problem with punchbowls is the will nilly nature of the results.  No matter what, a guy who drives it in the correct position to approach should have an advantage.  For the set-up I prefer on short par 4 punchbowls the good drive is rewarded while the indifferent drive punished with a more difficult approach.  Sound design strategy doesn't change because of the nature of the green - indeed, the green should enhance the strategy.  All that said, if all punchbowls were cut the same how boring the game would be.  I recently played Hindhead and was caught out by its punchbowl.  I assumed there would be short grass leading to the sunken green - bad mistake.




Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

And then there are holes that aren't't punchbowls that people erroneously label as punchbowls

[Patrick_Mucci]

The same way in which a short sided shot on an elevated green would be a penalty. A miss-play of strategy.

Yes, a long sided chip will always be easier than a short sided one.

That's just a "relative" assessment not an "absolute" assessment.
The shot from long grass on a step downhill slope is a very difficult shot.

 I have no idea what you mean by "metal spikes no longer being in use"

It means that on a steep downhill slope that it's more difficult to anchor your feet in preparation for your shot, making the shot much more difficult in soft spikes.

Wouldn't a bounce, regardless of the grass length, that maintains your ball in the area of its landing, rather than move it farther away from its landing, be easier? I do not think that a 2 to 2.25" cut around a punchbowl's banks, hardly disrupts the integrity of the bowl and its design features.


Look at the photos above.  Does that look like grass cut to 2" to 2.5" ?

I disagree that footpad and green surrounds should be the only determining factor. I think you could justify hole length as an additional determining factor. No question.

I think architects factor that into their design.
The moment they create their footpad they've told you what they intend, thus, the footpad should be the primary factor in determining maintenance practices.

Yes I would agree it is the architects decision ultimately on how he wants the green he builds to be maintained. However, I don't need to say anything further down that road to you Patrick, you know what happens.



That's the value of "as built" aerials

[Sean_A]

Sean,

And then there are holes that aren't't punchbowls that people erroneously label as punchbowls

Pat

The same could be said for all templates.  Many so-called Redans are anything but, yet the name lives on.  My guess is that originally, punchbowls weren't neatly trimmed fairway areas on the inside slopes.  I bet there were short trampled areas and other areas that were shaggy.  I'm okay with either if it makes sense for the hole.  Anyway, I think of true punchbowls as aerial approach shots due to large fronting mounds.  In other words, true punchers are very much blind, but its not the end of the world if they aren't.


Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

Give it a Brazilian.  Only a guy with a scorecard and pencil lodged in his rectum would advocate rough that would stop a ball on a punchbowl's banks.  Go see Tamarack #11 for reference.

How insightful.  
 
Fox Chapel’s version



Westhampton’s



What’s obvious is that neither club has decided that short grass should run all the way up the banks.