All Star Snub!!!! AA3 # (25)

[David Minogue]

Hello,

I have decided to start this discussion on the back of my entry no.25 which I felt was a strong challenge for this years AA3.

I would like to thank the people who voted for it and your kind words about my routing.

This contest was supposed to be a routing contest.. I felt my routing was strong and possibly a bit risky but still a good contender.

My routing was based on utilising the site and to give the golfers multiple playing angles, lies and changes in elevation. The course also would need very little construction to become a reality.

I decided to do a bare bones stick routing with just the outline's of the maintained areas.

I know alot of people are stimulated visually, would I have made the the top 8 if I did it on autocad and photoshop???

I did have some blind shots!!!! Some well know architects who are adored on this site, if they produced something similar they would have been applauded for it.

I spent a great amount of time studying the other entries and when it was my time to pick my top 5 my final decision was made on the routing, I am glad to see some who I voted for made the cut.

I don't know if I was the All Star Snub but I do wonder how some people came to their decisions???

All feedback is greatly appreciated, Cheers.


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8367/8561472517_3abebc2660_h.jpg

[Jim Colton]

David,

  Why don't you post a pic of your routing and let others fire away. As I mentioned, I voted for yours and thought you deserved to be in the final 8.

[Alex Miller]

David,

  Why don't you post a pic of your routing and let others fire away. As I mentioned, I voted for yours and thought you deserved to be in the final 8.

I've sent David the text for the clickable picture of his routing.

I also enjoyed it very much and voted for it. And if you are able to expand on what each hole may have been like I think there is a tremendous amount to discuss!

[Alex Miller]

Hello,

I have decided to start this discussion on the back of my entry no.25 which I felt was a strong challenge for this years AA3.

I would like to thank the people who voted for it and your kind words about my routing.

This contest was supposed to be a routing contest.. I felt my routing was strong and possibly a bit risky but still a good contender.

My routing was based on utilising the site and to give the golfers multiple playing angles, lies and changes in elevation. The course also would need very little construction to become a reality.

I decided to do a bare bones stick routing with just the outline's of the maintained areas.

I know alot of people are stimulated visually, would I have made the the top 8 if I did it on autocad and photoshop???

I did have some blind shots!!!! Some well know architects who are adored on this site, if they produced something similar they would have been applauded for it.

I spent a great amount of time studying the other entries and when it was my time to pick my top 5 my final decision was made on the routing, I am glad to see some who I voted for made the cut.

I don't know if I was the All Star Snub but I do wonder how some people came to their decisions???

All feedback is greatly appreciated, Cheers.




[/b]

[Bill Brightly]

Hey, the plans for one of the most significant structures ever built, the Sydney Opera House, did not make the final cut in a worldwide competition. It was only salvaged when one of the judges brought in to look at the finalists asked if he could see the plans that did not make the finals. He was intrigued by the "sails" and that plan was ultimately chosen!

I have no problem if Alex sends the 8 finalists and also all the others that were rejected.

[jeffwarne]

David,
Now you know how many qualified talented architects feel when a clueless owner selects someone else whose work is seemingly inferior.
At least because there were no names attached you didn't have to worry about a signature beating you out so the owner could hobnob with a celebrity.

[Josh Tarble]

David,
I thought yours was a fine routing, but I did not vote for yours because of two reasons
1.  One of the "requirements" was the inclusion of evening loops.  Yours did not have one true option.
2.  I really liked how much of the good ground you used, but to me I thought the front and back nines would have significantly different feels.  I though on a site like we were given, the first several and last couple were extremely wide open and the middle was extremely tight and crunched together.  I thought that this would give the course a two-faced feel.  Just my opinion.

[Jim Colton]

David,

  I do have a couple observations, hopefully to spark some debate on your entry.

- What kind of scale were you using? Even with the most conservative assumption I could come up with using Alex's 100-yard mark, the 18th hole looks to be around 680-yards long, as opposed to the 631 stated on your card. It may even be 700-yards long.

- I think I would've liked to have seen less of a dogleg on the 6th hole, where that depression would collect a miss right and leave an disadvantageous approach, as opposed to something that needs to be carried or else.

- I don't have a problem with the blind shots (the 7th is great), but the 14th looks like the golfer is just staring at and hitting into the side of a hill.

- The only other potential negative I see is the 500+ yard gap from the 18th green to the 1st tee, which could be a drawback for some. Given this is a national destination club with probably very little else to do than play 36 holes or more in a day, this could be an issue. Perhaps having the 18th play more easterly, say to the 'Area' in Short Game area, could've been a good option. It would utilize that cool feature just west of the plateau on the 2nd and 3rd shot.

- My favorite holes are 4, 7, 10 and 16

[David_Elvins]

David,
Now you know how many qualified talented architects feel when a clueless owner selects someone else whose work is seemingly inferior.

I was going to say the same thing.  

And his driving range is too rectangular

[Garland Bayley]

...
My routing was based on utilising the site and to give the golfers multiple playing angles, lies and changes in elevation. The course also would need very little construction to become a reality.
...

That's the kind of thing I look for. But then, I voted for yours.

[Colin Macqueen]

Bill,
That is a wonderful analogy!

David,
The Sydney Opera House was first commissioned in 1957 and finally completed (at great but worthwhile expense) in 1973!  My guess is that some of the finest golf courses in the world took a long time to come to fruition. Patience is a virtue David!

I liked your entry very much and one thing was certain to me, the routing was very clear, simple but clever and addressed that aspect of the commission head on. The wee internal loop from #9-#13 was inspired.

Kudos to you for fronting this "peanut gallery" with passion and dignity! Methinks that takes guts when disappointment might have occurred but I bet you will learn a huge amount (as will others) by allowing your terrific attempt to be clinically dissected.

Corragio,  Colin

[David Minogue]

Josh T,

Thanks for the comments, the placement of the lodges was to offer the golfers the chance to play loops adjacent to the accommodation 5-11, 12-17.

I agree that the front and back nine are totally different, yes there were some tight holes but they tend to be shorter and the opposite for the longer holes to give the golfers space on the longer holes.

Jim C,

I'l see if I can pull out my drawing to check the scale, I did try to keep to the length specified on the score card.

No. 6 would play shorter from the tee being elevated and I feel that a good drive down hill on firm tight turf would give the golfer a good angle to come at the green if they were unable to take the corner.

I would need a bit of dirt to prop up 14 tees to give the golfers some view of the landing area and possibly over the corner of the hill.

I did want to keep 18 green separate from 1 tee as I wanted to give the golfers some privacy at the beginning and end of their rounds. Agreed it is far away and it could possibly work a little closer to 1.

Guys keep the comments coming they are greatly appreciated as this is all adds to the learning experience.

Btw I did regret making the range rectangular!!! 

[Alex Miller]

David,

You mention that this is a routing contest, which is mostly true. I liked your routing but thought there were still some weaknesses among its strengths:

I really enjoyed the stretch from 7-16. You did a great job changing direction and the long stretch of par 4s has great variety.

I would've liked a semi-reachable par 5.

I think the sunset-golf is weak. I could see playing 1-5 back to the lodge for instance, but I think the finalists all did a better job at this aspect.

[Paul Gray]

David,

I also thought you were a strong contender and voted accordingly, but then I would say that because, although I didn't enter, I did have a little play about on paper and my routing was something like a backwards version of yours! Great minds etc.  

I did a bit more to allow for evening loops and I shoved the range out of the way in the flat area to the south but otherwise the similarities were quite striking.

I thought the clubhouse positioning up there on the high ground was a no brainer so was surprised to see how many entries didn't utilise the spot for that purpose.

Well done on an excellent entry which avoided any concessions to candy floss golf.

[Steve Lang]

  David,

As aa of the Red Prairie entry #15 i voted for your Big Red Links, as I liked your routing... and left a comment to that effect..  the only comment i left on any of those feedback spreadsheets.  I liked the simple outline approach, which is what i too used..

I too focused on the routing challenge (including prevailing winds) and appreciated that your western area was utilizing what i thought was among the most interesting topography areas of the whole site.  The ill defined sunset golf aspect is fully realized in that high ground area, not by those making loop de loops in the lower areas.. one could spend lots of time in that area till dark..

p.s. what did you feel about having to vote for others and not yourself??
p.s.s. i was going promote renting out some of my 300 x 500 yard practice range for polo matches
p.s.s.s. did you consider saving certain areas for the next 18?

[Garland Bayley]

...
- The only other potential negative I see is the 500+ yard gap from the 18th green to the 1st tee, which could be a drawback for some. ...

Only for those that play more than 100 holes in a day. The rest of us like to have lunch between rounds, and have no problem with this feature.
Heck, we even like to have dinner or high tea before going out for the 3rd round of the day.

[Dieter Jones]

Hey, the plans for one of the most significant structures ever built, the Sydney Opera House, did not make the final cut in a worldwide competition. It was only salvaged when one of the judges brought in to look at the finalists asked if he could see the plans that did not make the finals. He was intrigued by the "sails" and that plan was ultimately chosen!

I have no problem if Alex sends the 8 finalists and also all the others that were rejected.

Bill, the Sydney Opera house turned out to be one of the most iconic and magnificent structures ever built in the world. From the outside!!

The inside (ie the performance spaces) contains an opera theatre that cant even hold all the orchestra in conditions that would meet any sort of workplace safety standards (think industrial Deafness courtesy of a trumpet in your ear). The concert hall which was to originally be the opera hall has just about the worst acoustics of any venue I have attended a symphony in. I'm sure there are many golf courses in the world we could nominate that look magnificent but play very poorly.

In fairness to Mr Utzon who designed the place - he was sacked from the job site before he could even provide a solution for the interiors of each hall. That being said a lot of the problems stem from the fact that his exterior design (the pretty bit) was so radical that they then had to work out how it could actually be built along the way. In the process a lot of the interior spaces became very compromised.

[Jim Colton]

...
- The only other potential negative I see is the 500+ yard gap from the 18th green to the 1st tee, which could be a drawback for some. ...

Only for those that play more than 100 holes in a day. The rest of us like to have lunch between rounds, and have no problem with this feature.
Heck, we even like to have dinner or high tea before going out for the 3rd round of the day.

Wait, so you're saying that nobody other than a select few would have an issue with +/- 250-yard walk to both the first tee and back to the house?

[Dieter Jones]

David, can you clarify - am I reading your post right and you are pissed because you think it was just the type of graphics you used that caused you to miss the final. ie that your routing deserved to make the top 8 but people rely too much on visual stimulation of a pretty picture to make their decisions?

If so then I think you are selling short the people who post on this site and who voted.

Did you consider that your outline routing provided partial information only? For example how do I know the shape of your greens sites & which angle I need to attack them from to get to certain pin placements?  In the green surrounds what contours are running towards or away from the putting surface etc and how does that effect the way I might play a hole? 

Dieter

PS Remember you could be the 6th best course on everyone's list and get zero votes
PPS Remember I voted for your course

[Steve Lang]

Did you consider that your outline routing provided partial information only? For example how do I know the shape of your greens sites & which angle I need to attack them from to get to certain pin placements?  In the green surrounds what contours are running towards or away from the putting surface etc and how does that effect the way I might play a hole? 

no way can such extensive info be presented on one page which must primarily present routing, in past aac's multiple pages were allowed and used for routing, score card, hole narrative, and green slope descriptions as desired.   

[Alex Miller]

Did you consider that your outline routing provided partial information only? For example how do I know the shape of your greens sites & which angle I need to attack them from to get to certain pin placements?  In the green surrounds what contours are running towards or away from the putting surface etc and how does that effect the way I might play a hole? 

no way can such extensive info be presented on one page which must primarily present routing, in past aac's multiple pages were allowed and used for routing, score card, hole narrative, and green slope descriptions as desired.   

It's sad to see you guys arguing about something that has already been discussed so much. How many people would have voted publicly had there been 3 times the material to review? As it is we only had 34 ballots with a one page limit. And it's fine if you disagree, but there was a time to bring this up. Doing so after the fact does nothing for you and may not put yourself in the most flattering light.

The one page was meant to be a middle ground between the stick routing and more detail. It was up to the presenter to figure out how to convey their entry, and if they received enough votes the contestant had/has an opportunity for the judges to see as much material as they want for the final round of judging.

I tried to share as much as I could about what I was doing in an effort to help people looking for guidance. There were entries that went above and beyond what I did, so I don't look at the format as a lack of direction, but as the freedom to present what you wanted. You knew that there was public voting and should have planned accordingly.


Steve, when Dieter mentions the contours of greens and approach angles, he may be referencing the fact that it was hard to get an idea of the way the holes played without even an outline of the greens. The contours at the end of the holes could influence play very differently depending on how the green sits.


David, although your routing had less detail, never for a second did I think it was less thought-out than any other entry. Although not having more detail may have hurt you with some voters, know that there also is some benefit to allowing people to use their imagination in seeing your course. You can't detract for weaknesses that aren't there!

[Jim Colton]

I have to agree with Alex on the last point...I found myself dismissing more entries based on something they did include versus what they didn't. It was easy for me to assume that the details for 25 would make sense given the thought put into the routing and use of features.

[Dieter Jones]

Steve, I disagree. Other entries were able to provide that in one page.

I don't think I explained it clearly enough. Alex explained my point better than I did - that it was hard to get an idea without even the green outlines. An important part of my method of evaluating the strategy and interest of each course was to see where the green lay. From that I looked at the surrounding contours and imagined how they would affect play from further back along the hole.

Of course this is just one part of the evaluation process and it turns out it wasn't a deal breaker for me because I felt the routing was strong enough and interesting enough to get my vote. I know this and a couple of other courses that didn't make the final I was really hoping to see the fleshed out version so I'm disappointed that they didn't get up.

Alex / Jim - Surely the point of judging a design competition is to evaluate other peoples work. To put it another way the point is to judge the designers imagination.

Isn't "using YOUR imagination" to fill in gaps defeating the purpose? You potentially end up with a vision of the design in your mind that is half yours. How do you judge that equitably against a presentation that provides more details, eliminates more of "your imagination" and therefore has none of your own bias?

There was plenty of time to exercise your imagination when creating your own design.

[Alex Miller]

Alex / Jim - Surely the point of judging a design competition is to evaluate other peoples work. To put it another way the point is to judge the designers imagination.

Isn't "using YOUR imagination" to fill in gaps defeating the purpose? You potentially end up with a vision of the design in your mind that is half yours. How do you judge that equitably against a presentation that provides more details, eliminates more of "your imagination" and therefore has none of your own bias?

There was plenty of time to exercise your imagination when creating your own design.

I meant it more in the sense that the "imagination bias" is potentially as powerful a force as the "graphics bias" when evaluating a routing. Obviously one gives more detail than the other, but to my last point, that is not necessarily a positive thing.

[Dieter Jones]

OK, yes Alex I see what you meant now.