The Redan isn't the only hole

[Patrick_Mucci]

Earthen works that form an integral part of the green or green surrounds that feed balls into the putting surface might be a good start

And how exactly does the "surrounds" in front of 11 green at ANGC not meet this definition? 

It's too far removed from the putting surface

I'd put it in the turbo boost category

[Bill_McBride]

Joey,

Yes, good call , that's a very useful and fun feature to interface with.

I would imagine that CBM/SR/CB courses have an abundance of deflection plates.

I thought the neat thing about # 1 at Streamsong Blue was the blind nature of the deflection plate, which also brings up the issue of local knowlrdge

If it's blind, by definition you must not be able to see this "deflection plate" from the fairway.  So where is it, behind that first slope that sends all approach shots left?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joey,

Yes, good call , that's a very useful and fun feature to interface with.

I would imagine that CBM/SR/CB courses have an abundance of deflection plates.

I thought the neat thing about # 1 at Streamsong Blue was the blind nature of the deflection plate, which also brings up the issue of local knowlrdge

If it's blind, by definition you must not be able to see this "deflection plate" from the fairway. 

Bill, the actual deflection plate may be unobservable by the golfer, but the land form creating the deflection plate is clearly visible to the golfer.

I guess it depends upon one's powers of observation as the golfer plays each hole/shot

So where is it, behind that first slope that sends all approach shots left?

It dominates the entire right side.

And, you must be near sighted ?
A keen observer of the hole can see the land form from the highly elevated tee.
It's apparent that you need the services of Coorshaw.

[Bill_McBride]

Joey,

Yes, good call , that's a very useful and fun feature to interface with.

I would imagine that CBM/SR/CB courses have an abundance of deflection plates.

I thought the neat thing about # 1 at Streamsong Blue was the blind nature of the deflection plate, which also brings up the issue of local knowlrdge

If it's blind, by definition you must not be able to see this "deflection plate" from the fairway. 

Bill, the actual deflection plate may be unobservable by the golfer, but the land form creating the deflection plate is clearly visible to the golfer.

I guess it depends upon one's powers of observation as the golfer plays each hole/shot

So where is it, behind that first slope that sends all approach shots left?

It dominates the entire right side.

And, you must be near sighted ?
A keen observer of the hole can see the land form from the highly elevated tee.
It's apparent that you need the services of Coorshaw.

Hang on there, how can it be both "blind" and "clearly visible from the fairway?"

I know it's past your bedtime but please resolve this dichotomy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

YOU were the one declaring it blind, not me.

I saw the high right shoulder/earthen works

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

YOU were the one declaring it blind, not me.

I saw the high right shoulder/earthen works

But these are your own words:

"I thought the neat thing about # 1 at Streamsong Blue was the blind nature of the deflection plate, which also brings up the issue of local knowlrdge"

Even your spelling.

So I remain confused.......

[Mark McKeever]

The first hole at Morris County GC comes to mind quickly.  The second shot is very redan like as you can funnel your shot to the left from the right side of the green feeling very similar to a redan. 

Mark

Pat,
As someone else who has played Morris County, would you agree with the redan'ish features of the first hole?  Granted not as severe as their actual redan, I think the shot requirement is still there.

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

YOU were the one declaring it blind, not me.

I saw the high right shoulder/earthen works

But these are your own words:

"I thought the neat thing about # 1 at Streamsong Blue was the blind nature of the deflection plate, which also brings up the issue of local knowlrdge"

Even your spelling.

So I remain confused.......

Bill,

You seem to be perpetually confused.

"Blind nature"  The plate itself is blind, the huge earthen work that contains the plate is visible.

Certainly, even you are capable of deductive reasoning......no ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

YOU were the one declaring it blind, not me.

I saw the high right shoulder/earthen works

But these are your own words:

"I thought the neat thing about # 1 at Streamsong Blue was the blind nature of the deflection plate, which also brings up the issue of local knowlrdge"

Even your spelling.

So I remain confused.......

Bill,

"Blind nature"

While the kick plate is hidden from sight, the huge earthen work containing it is clearly visisble.

Surely, even you are capabale of deductive reasoning............no ?

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

YOU were the one declaring it blind, not me.

I saw the high right shoulder/earthen works

But these are your own words:

"I thought the neat thing about # 1 at Streamsong Blue was the blind nature of the deflection plate, which also brings up the issue of local knowlrdge"

Even your spelling.

So I remain confused.......

Bill,

"Blind nature"

While the kick plate is hidden from sight, the huge earthen work containing it is clearly visisble.

Surely, even you are capabale of deductive reasoning............no ?

The big earth work on the right is obvious from the tee.  When you pointed out its "blind nature," I deduced you must be talking about a second slope behind that obviously visible one.  And yes, I am quite "capabale" of deductive reasoning, even when the clues are muddled.  Elementary my dear Mucci. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

A decent drive doesn't leave you that far from the green and while everything might not be revealed, enough is revealed to let an intelligent golfer draw prudent conclusions.

And, if you weren't aware of the kick plate on subsequent plays, the first paragraph wouldn't be applicable to you.

[Thomas Dai]

The 15th at Cruden Bay would be another example of 'kick-plate'. Blind par-3, will kick-in from both sides, left side for the brave/foolhardy, right side for the canny with a nice soft right hand draw. Not a punchbowl though, don't go through the back.

All the best

[Patrick_Mucci]

How about # 14 at ANGC ?

It's not a flanking kick plate, perhaps more of a backstop kick plate

# 11 at Preakness Hills has one as does # 6 at Mountain Ridge

[Mark McKeever]

Pat, I asked an ON topic question above.    As one who has seen it, what are your thoughts on hole 1 at Morris County fitting this category?

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I asked an ON topic question above.    As one who has seen it, what are your thoughts on hole 1 at Morris County fitting this category?


Mark,

I think it does.

But an even better example is # 1 at The Creek, another opening par 4 hole.

# 1 at The Creek is a more dramatic Redan.

I think the shortcoming in both holes is the length of the approach shot into the greens.

It's too short and not typical of the template Redan, but both are really neat starting holes

[Mark McKeever]

Good point Pat regarding the approach distance required. 

After a good drive, I believe I only had an 8 or 9 iron into the first at Morris County.  Even still I made an effort to draw the ball off the right edge of the green and it came down nicely.  In order to force a redan type shot requirement, I would think the hole needs another 80 yards in length, and judging by your critique on the Creek's opener, it needs something similar to have an effective redan setup for the second.

Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

Both holes, with their short approach length from the DZ, almost use the deflection plate as a corrective feature for errant shots.

Or, as a feature to be employed off of an errant, shorter drive.

I can't imagine, at 9-iron distance, trying to hit a low running shot to take advantage of the deflection plate.

Still, they're neat holes and I tend to favor benign starting holes versus round ruiners.