How much is local knowledge worth?

[Mark Chaplin]

Next week at the request of the captain of the R&A, Royal Cinque Ports are playing a match against the French national team. The Deal team will be made up of very experienced players with handicaps ranging from scratch to four. The "worst" French player is +1.8 and the best +5.7, so in each match we will be conceeding around 6 shots to the opposition, this suggests 6&5 and 5&4 losses should be the average. The course is firming up but certainly cannot be described as firm and fast so early in the year, so quality players should be able to stop the ball reasonably well.

How much effect will local knowledge have? Are there courses where the member has a significant advantage over the first time visitor and is this advantage reduced by the better player?

[Niall C]

Mark

I suspect at that kind of level these guys will have no bother finding the middle of the fairway and be able to hit greens OK. I wonder if they will lose strokes and around the greens the odd times they miss. At this time of year, there never seems to be as much borrow as you think. As you suggest, the hard won local knowledge of the local team is probably of no use to someone who can fly the ball all the way to the green and make it stop.

I've never played RCP but are there a number of blind holes ? Those might be the only other advantage that the locals might have. Other courses like that might be the Machrie and Cruden Bay.

Niall

[Mark Bourgeois]

A couple of experienced caddies on their side, caddies a la mode if you will (aka Deal traitors), and you guys are French Toast. Mais a bonne chance (good luck).

EDIT: to clarify, your best chance is if the greens have a few nonintuitive-breaking putts, thus my caddies comment.

One strategy that might work is a pre-round full-on carvery+claret lunch.

[Mark Chaplin]

We usually beat the Yale team who total around zero for the ten players and we play a few 6-10 handicappers. However that is usually down to Yale's lack of experience around the claret!!

[Mark Bourgeois]

On second thought, trying to beat the French at the "claret game"? They invented it!

[Scott Warren]

Chappers,

The drives at 9, 10, 13, 15 will trick them. The line isn't obvious on any of them until after a few plays and even with a caddie, they won't completely believe where to hit it.

The approaches to 3, 6, 12, 15 and 17 take time to learn, also.

But then again, the golfers we're talking about are far better than you and I...

[HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry]

I know this is a little off topic, but it got me thinking about the overall thought of how much local knowledge matters.  I have played in a few inter-club matches at CGC, and I've been shocked to see guest teams/players that are around a 10 handicap, struggle to break 90 (sometimes even 100).  On the other hand, the scratch players I have played with that are guests generally have shot close to par on the course as well.  With those two statements, I wonder if local knowledge is more important to the mid-handicapper vs. the low-handicapper.  With that said, I think CGC is probably a pretty extreme example, in that you have to be straight/long and bring a great short game to score well, and perhaps the mid-handicapper doesn't always have all of those facets dialed in, and can become discouraged relativity quickly as to the difficulty of the course.

[Michael Whitaker]

CGC?

[HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry]

Sorry, Colorado Golf Club.

[Jackson C]

I recall Gary Player saying that the most unrated skill in golf is memory.
He had a great memory and could recall every hole and situation.
It benefitted him greatly in competitions.

[Tony_Muldoon]

On second thought, trying to beat the French at the "claret game"? They invented it!

Mark B. on further reflection as a Logophile and an Oenophile, you might agree that the “Claret game” should technically be credited to the English?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux_wine

Mark C. I’d like to believe local knowledge at Deal in the game will be worth at least 1 a side in the AM and 1 a game in the PM.

No way of proving of course.  Best of British…

[Mike Hendren]

Lookout Mountain comes to mind, particularly on the greens where gravity is defied on occasion for the visitor.  I think they wear the boys out from down in the city in inter-club matches.

Bogey

[Jud_T]

Exhibit A:  I bet a buddy of mine, a 6 handicap, that he couldn't break 90 from the tips at Kingsley.  He'd only played the course once previously.  He was going along nicely until he got to #9, where he hit it over the green, got stubborn about taking his medicine and walked off with steam coming out of both ears and a 13 on the card.  For those who aren't aware, the hole's a 135 yard par 3.  Needless to say, dinner and drinks were on him...

[Doug Siebert]

I would think local knowledge matters most on the courses that have a lot of holes with a large standard deviation in scoring, the holes us GCAers love where you can score anything from an eagle to a triple, rather than courses that are "tough" but for good players just means grinding out pars and taking bogeys, with the rare birdie.

Obviously as a 5-6 handicap I play a totally different game than those French guys with their shiny plus handicaps, but that's how it works out for me.  There are some holes you just have to play more than a few times to see how the different approaches in strategy work for you, and find out the advantages and disadvantages of each particular strategy.  There are some holes with a wide scoring dispersion that I still occasionally learn something new about after several dozen plays.  On the straightforward holes the lessons are more "don't hit it here", or "don't try this shot from there when the pin is in that spot" but the strategy from the tee remains the same every time.

Maybe the really good players just intuitively know from one or two plays what the correct choice is for their game, but seeing the pros make wrong strategic choices at times makes me believe that's not any more true for skilled players than it is for me, or at least its far from universal amongst skilled players.

[Michael Goldstein]

Chappas - if it's 2 club wind or more, I'm picking your boys.

Happy to put a 10'er on it.

Will pay you this summer.

[Sean_A]

If the French handicaps are accurate, no amount of local knowledge will save your ass.  If these are truly + players, they will play conservatively when the situation calls for it.  Deal isn't that tricky of a course.  I think more advantage will be gained by the club using some odd tees on the day.  This will enhance the advantage of local knowledge.  There are some holes on which the player with length will dominate.  Take away that advantage with a shorter course in the right spots and that will be worth something.  I'm not sure it is enough, but with local knowledge, canny tees and perhaps some dodgy weather, the match may be competitive. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Our club champ is incredibly talented off 1+ and only plays once a week or once a fortnight, he won a number of major amateur events a few years ago so I think he has a chance even giving away 4 shots. The 2 and 3 handicappers are the ones I think will struggle even if they play well. No doubt the French are all under 21 so the hut will be coke or water and they'll have loads of energy.

Sadly there is little rough as it's been chopped back to thin it out before the Amateur in June.

[Scott Warren]

Chaplin,

The rough has been chopped back and the course being prepared for a certain weekend in August. The fact the Amateur is just weeks beforehand is just a happy coincidence that will allow the club a chance to ensure all is in readiness for later in the summer!

[Mark Chaplin]

The R&A have requested canary yellow fairways for the Amateur, is Mr Pearce a man of influence!!

August? Ah yes the mixed invite, who you bringing 

[Bill_McBride]

Our club champ is incredibly talented off 1+ and only plays once a week or once a fortnight, he won a number of major amateur events a few years ago so I think he has a chance even giving away 4 shots. The 2 and 3 handicappers are the ones I think will struggle even if they play well. No doubt the French are all under 21 so the hut will be coke or water and they'll have loads of energy.

Sadly there is little rough as it's been chopped back to thin it out before the Amateur in June.

Get those young'uns drunk, it will even things out.  Send Laura out to hostess at the hut, she'll be quite distracting.

It worked on me!

[Mark Chaplin]

Bill they are all young flat bellies battling for places in the national team so they wouldn't drink BUT a Frenchman never misses a pretty girl!!

[Mark Chaplin]

The French team, handicaps and world ranking. Fortunately the world no.6 isn't playing!

Adrien Saddier (+6) World No 16
Thomas Elissalde (+5) World No 79
Pierre Mazier (+2) World No 375
Romain Langasque (+3) World No 113
Joris Etlin (+2) World No 1395
Paul Elissalde (+3) World No 966
Nicolas Manifacier (+3) World No 598
Victor Veyret (+2) World No 1541
 

[Mark Bourgeois]

I'm sure those are pure tournament handicaps and lots of medal at that. Sadier is European #1, Elissalde #3, Langasque #25. You guys are in for a total pasting. You're going to get a good Chunneling! You'll be 1066'ed and all that!

[JESII]

Mark,

Does your team want to win? You'll have an enjoyable day regardless so going out with that intention alone is great, and admirable...but...if you want to win it's not impossible.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Does local knowledge matter?

In one word, YES