[Mac Plumart]

Mac,

Here is my experience with Bermuda.  I haven't been to Streamsong, but they aren't the only game in town when it comes to striving for a certain playability on Bermuda.  Don's maintenance meld at Wolf Point is the combination of several factors that I believe could be (but probably won't be) accepted by Bermuda courses.

1) Irrigation.  The biggest piece.  Don believes in--and I by association--in strong, brutish (some might say ugly?) turf.  I've rarely seen any pictures of Wolf that look like the bermuda at say, Palmetto or Streamsong.  I don't mean to speak for Don, but he wants the turf to be somewhat unhappy.  In a perfect world, he would give them a large amount of water on an infrequent basis.  This causes less green turf, with very strong and deep roots.  He is cultivating a surface on which to play golf, NOT growing pretty, lush, green grass.  However, no matter his efforts, rain can derail the plan (this is especially true in central Florida and southeast Texas where rain comes in heavy).

2) Ownership.  Don isn't trying to impress customers.  There aren't many magazines taking pictures.  It isn't getting rated.  All he has to do is present the best maintenance meld for the owner.  And the owner wants a fun, practical, sustainable surface. 

3) Topdressing/mowing.  Bermuda takes a concerted effort to be firm and not "grabby."  The biggest part of this is getting the surface to play with less friction, which means minimizing grain and increasing firmness.  Both of these goals are accomplished with topdressing.  And NOT just greens.  To get surrounds to play with links characteristics, topdressing should be done in graduated applications around the green and approaches as well.


But this weekend at Chambers, I was reminded yet again that even the linksiest of bermudas can ever replicate fescue.  So I would recommend that anyone looking for links golf in North America start FIRST with fescue on sand and then gradually branch out from there. 

Excellent!

Thanks for that post.

[Jason Hines]

Chambers Bay was a good call. 

Thoughts on the  wooga (thick rough) taking Wildhorse out of the discussion for North American Links.

Mac,

Good question, I always thought that the burning off of the wooga helps the overall playability of WH.  Last year was the first year since ’99 that I was not able to make it out there and I have heard that they are trying to “soften” the course.  Don’t know if this is true or not, but would be a shame if it is.

Jason

The Wooga varies from season to season, and year to year. Right now, coming after last years drought, the Wooga is as tame as you'll likely ever see it.

Jason, The burning, imo, is the easiest way to keep it from turning into Prairie Dunes. It does however come back healthier.

Josh does a great job in controlling the over throw on his course.

Yesterday we were discussing how the perfect Sand Hills surrounds should both look and play. It's very similar to the way Pinehurst #2 is now presented. Recoverability, with differing challenges depending on lie.

Does anyone know how they would maintain that?  Obviously, there is a method at Pinehurst #2 and I wonder how that method would apply out on the prairie where it comes back stronger and stronger every year.......

[Adam Clayman]

Jason, As with all maintenance issues, it takes cash and diligence. If managing irrigation over throw is ideal, the cost wouldn't be much of a factor.

At WH, they knew going in the added cost to maintain the fescue collars and they let slide. So, I doubt it's even a concern for them.

[Jason Hines]

Jason, As with all maintenance issues, it takes cash and diligence. If managing irrigation over throw is ideal, the cost wouldn't be much of a factor.

At WH, they knew going in the added cost to maintain the fescue collars and they let slide. So, I doubt it's even a concern for them.

Still enjoying the vision of Pinehurst style wooga out on the Nebraska prairie....  Always was a shame about the fescue collars, but understand the cost factor.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Ben,
You basically explained what we try to do. What i look for is the fist bounce of the ball. Bermuda is going to be Bermuda and no one will ever confuse it with well maintained fescue. Bermuda will always have more friction on the ball. But, if you can keep the surface dry and get that first big bounce, then you go a long ways to having a southern course play sort of like a links. Key is getting the green and approach to play close to the same. I don't mind seeing a wedge bounce into the front slope of a green, then bite and roll back, but I hate seeing a wedge leave a ball mark in the approach and spin down to the low spot. You have to get the ball bouncing on bermuda. You need to see a nice bounce off of your tee ball and you need to be able to bounce it into the green. If you get that going, then the game becomes more fun on a course like Wolf Point.

[Don_Mahaffey]

The irrigation over throw and managing think native is a real debate. here is my .02.
In a windy environment the water is going to go where nature takes it. When you line a golf course with perimeter heads, and count on those heads as a key component because they will irrigate in toward the fwy some 60-70 ft, you have to use them. And when you use them, the wind is going to carry spray into the native. it is inevitable and very difficult to manage.

But if you have no perimeter heads, and you allow the superintendent to take the golf course to the water and not try and manage the water to the golf course, then you might have a chance to keep the edges playable. But even all that may still result in native that has to be managed. All those beautiful pictures we see of untouched sand hills prairie is actually grazed land. The cattle get rotated in an out and they keep the native in check. Remove the cattle, throw in a wet year or two, and someone or somebody has to do the cow's job.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Don & Ben,
Thanks for the interesting comments on the Bermuda.
Can you explain how top dressing reduces friction, achieved by minimising grain and increasing firmness please?

Do you use sand for this? Clearly if this is your method, then you also believe that the costs of top dressing easily sand up o alternatives?

What do you think is the impact on where the golf ball stops in hollows or mounds on the FW's in relation to Bermuda vs Fescue ? Are balls more likely to gather at the base with bermuda, and fescue rest on a slope giving an uneven lie to the golfer?

Don, first time I recall hearing the description of taking the ourselves to the water - very interesting.

A friend of mine likes to say in regard to Bermuda/Couch: " treat it mean and keep it keen"

[Charlie_Bell]

Caabot Links is spectacular and delightful.

Because my in-laws own property in Nova Scotia, I've been going there from Connecticut annually for the past 20 years.  The summertime climate is perfect for me:  70's, breezy, and sunny most of the time.  If the temperature reaches 80, locals complain about the heat.

Cabot Links is spectacular and delightful.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Don & Ben,
Thanks for the interesting comments on the Bermuda.
Can you explain how top dressing reduces friction, achieved by minimising grain and increasing firmness please?

Do you use sand for this? Clearly if this is your method, then you also believe that the costs of top dressing easily sand up o alternatives?

What do you think is the impact on where the golf ball stops in hollows or mounds on the FW's in relation to Bermuda vs Fescue ? Are balls more likely to gather at the base with bermuda, and fescue rest on a slope giving an uneven lie to the golfer?

Don, first time I recall hearing the description of taking the ourselves to the water - very interesting.

A friend of mine likes to say in regard to Bermuda/Couch: " treat it mean and keep it keen"

Brett, your friend is thinking along the same lines. The last thing we want is happy, lush bermuda. IMO, as soon as it starts looking good, it needs a swift kick in the teeth.
When I play fast courses with good bounce, I can get down on the grass, pull apart the leaves, and see soil. When i play a slow course, if I pull apart the grass, i usually see more plant parts. I want to see soil.
When you have an aggressive grower like Bermuda, you can either thin the grass, or add soil, or do both. Adding sand topdressing to the Bermuda approaches dilutes the thatch and brings the soil closer to the surface, and adds some drainage/air pore space. Combine that with regular vertical mowing and you can keep the approaches fast and bouncy.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Thanks Don,
Does your budget cover the cost of sand top dressing, or do you need a plentiful, local supply, preferably on the property - ie no cost?
Do you scarifying every other year? How often do you top dress?

I have a small area of Santa Ana couch at my place, which I treat very mean, it stays very firm and fast, looks good from a distance, but on close inspection, lots of soil visible, pretty sure most retail golfers would disapprove.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Brett, I fell like I've hijacked the thread a bit....but yes, if golfers look down and see dirt, they will not be happy and usually the surface isn't great for golf. But, if the surface is fully turfed, and when you pull apart the leaves, the soil is right there, you might have a darn good golfing surface. More to it then just that, but it is a good start.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Don, I also bear responsibility for the hijack - apologies!

What is the closest course to a links in Nth America with Bermuda?

Mac, do you think it reasonable to have a proviso that a links course cannot have Bermuda/Couch as the fairway turf? Assuming in Summer it is more difficult to achieve the fast and firm with this turf type?

I have heard two strong complaints of a course here(close to the ocean), that over previous months has headed down the fast and firm path with santa ana couch - the complaints were negative to the thin turf and presentation. I am yet to see it in person.

Mac - send me a PM if this is off thread.

[Brett_Morrissy]

I cannot recall the turf at Bandon Trials? is it different to PD & BD?

[Tim_Weiman]

Mike Schott,

The Gailes Course at Lakewood Shores has never gained much attention at this site, but I remember it fondly. For both fun and value, I found it to be really great. Definitely different. Has its own character. Doesn't remind me of anywhere else. Really want to go back.

As for the original question,  I don't think anywhere in the US really matches playing in the UK & Ireland.

[Mac Plumart]

Don...

This isn't a thread-jack. I can't think of many things more important to links golf than turf.  Please continue.

[Bill Crane]

Highland Links (!!) in Truro Mass - Cape Cod

Located on the dunes looking down on Highland Beach, the nine hole course surrounds the Cape Cod Light.  A true links course, somewhat rudimentary, it is a fun course often playing firm and fast on a total sand base, although they sometimes over water the greens.  Tremendous views of the Atlantic, Provincetown Harbor, and Cape Cod Bay to Race Point at the tip of the Cape.   Green fees a little expensive for what it is, especially in the summer.

Pictures and information can be found here:   

http://www.truro-ma.gov/html_pages/facilities/golf/golf_aerial.php

I wrote a post here on the most weather exposed holes thread about playing the course during early October in sidewise rain, with the wind BLOWING the Pin out of the cup on the 5th green.  Have never actually seen that before or since.

While the truest Links that I have experienced in the US, it is not a destination course.

WmFlynnfan

[Walter Bart]

   I reviewed "True Links" and George Peper's GCA interview of Dec. 2010.  Highland Links is the only US course outside of the  Bandon Dunes
courses that he categorizes  as a true links Course.  It is a  fun, short, nine holes with very small greens.  The downhill, dogleg, second is a very good hole. Greens fees in season are $35 for nine and $60 for eighteen.  Should it have been included in the Top Twenty Nine Hole Courses now  being discussed in the Discussion Site?  It may be the oldest - 1892.

    Also, if one does make it to Truro in mid Spring or late Fall, they might consider playing Sankaty Head on Nantucket which is open to the public up to Memorial Day and after Columbus Day. Although for some reason(s) it was  not placed in the True  Links category,  it has most of the links characteristics, being  next to the ocean, having sandy soil and  grass lined fairways. There are pines on some of  the back nine holes, however.  It is certainly a really good impersonation of a links course.

[Adam Clayman]

The irrigation over throw and managing think native is a real debate. here is my .02.
In a windy environment the water is going to go where nature takes it. When you line a golf course with perimeter heads, and count on those heads as a key component because they will irrigate in toward the fwy some 60-70 ft, you have to use them. And when you use them, the wind is going to carry spray into the native. it is inevitable and very difficult to manage.

But if you have no perimeter heads, and you allow the superintendent to take the golf course to the water and not try and manage the water to the golf course, then you might have a chance to keep the edges playable. But even all that may still result in native that has to be managed. All those beautiful pictures we see of untouched sand hills prairie is actually grazed land. The cattle get rotated in an out and they keep the native in check. Remove the cattle, throw in a wet year or two, and someone or somebody has to do the cow's job.

Don, There are a few areas at Bayside, where the look I described as Pinehursty, is evident. There are no cows there and they are fairway adjacent. As you well know, we are coming off a drought year, but, Bayside didn't hold back on the watering.

My hope would be, if areas like those described above can exist naturally in certain areas, there should be a way to help them exist throughout.  Yes, the wind is blowing often, but rarely pre-dawn, or evening, when most watering is done. When it does blow, it usually shifts day to day, or even intra day. This shifting, should allow for enough coverage, so that heads that are going to over spray with a specific wind, don't get activated until there's a shift. Now, I admit, my knowledge of whether that's physically possible for an irrigation system to achieve, is non-existent. I just thought if a guy can turn on and off heads with his cell phone, they should be able to predict which heads are doing the most over spray, and in which areas with a specific wind. i.e. blind landing area adjacent native areas should be a priority as these are the most frustrating areas to find patches of long grasses in, because you can't see exactly where it went into the patch.  

[David Davis]

As an Oregonian sitting here at my desk in Munich, Germany and excited to commute back to Amsterdam for links golf this weekend I'm itching to chime in here. I love playing golf in the US (or anywhere else for that matter). However, Mac, the only true links experience is like a few have said, across the Atlantic. I absolutely love Bandon Dunes resort, makes me proud to be an American, sorry Oregonian. Pacific is one of my all time favorites and yes I'd call them true links courses in terms of surface conditions and playability. They are also a must visit for everyone, never heard anyone go there and not just love it so it's worth the very long trip in my opinion. Chambers Bay is fun and while completely manufactured still a links like experience.

I do want to reiterate however that nothing in the US is equivalent to links golf across the Atlantic, be it Deal/Donegal, St. Andrews, Aberdeen, Inverness or Skegness for that matter. It's all unique, it's all wonderful and rugged and not manufactured and prettied up and pampered like golf in the US. Hey, I'm not saying you will like it more than running around in air-conditioned carts with cute young beer girls delivering during your round and you will have to clean your own shoes and clubs and park your own car, but fact is it's what golf is all about, it's where golf started and it's right here easily accessible for all of us.

So Mac the easy answer is...head to Europe but by all means save for that unforgettable week in Oregon too. Sometimes you just have prioritize more than one thing in life ;-)

[Adam Clayman]

I took this today. Hopefully it conveys the playability.

[Jason Hines]

I took this today. Hopefully it conveys the playability.

Beautiful.

Is that Bayside?  I miss the sand hills and cannot wait to get back out there.

You can see the affects of the drought.

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