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V. Kmetz

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Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« on: July 02, 2018, 10:33:29 AM »
Disturbed by my witness to Shinnecock's ridiculous presentation... greatly irritated by Winged Foot's use of Warp Viagra green speeds during its recent M/G, which make playing "safeties" 6 and 10 and 15 feet from many hole locations a valid strategy...and thoroughly disgusted by fresh visits to Knollwood, and Whippoorwill among others, I'm ready to unleash a hateful thread on the classic cohort I know the best.


These are souring holes, holes where you're forced to a narrow range of shots, forced to carry or forced to lay back...holes that rely on semi and fully blind shots that carry no zest or rewarding reveal but wicked hazards and lost balls ...holes that play up and down mountains...holes that don't accentuate their "best" features (if any)...holes, that if grouped, would be the single unfriendliest course in one of the best worldwide golf districts for its architecture.


... by the hole numbers.


#1 Ardsley - 362 yds - Fittingly, there will probably as little argument will be offered here as any single hole in my list, as it is probably the worst hole on any course of any vintage... (truly, "#1 in your program and #1 in your heart)  You might figure a pond, a giant willow and a 100 foot cliff drop in tee elevation would never cause such angst. You would be wrong. Because these things conspire as they do, it essentially is two lousy par 3s in a row; one a drop shot to a target so far below you, you do not see the result. The next a short iron over the pond (and the willow) off the expected mushy fairway turf that necessarily rests at the bottom of such a cliff. Make your par(s), take your 6 and hopefully your car is parked in the lot closest to this first green, so you can go home.


#2 Knollwood - 405 yds - This near 90 degree dogleg left has so much going for it that its hard to pick...is it the severe reverse camber wherein a tee shot aimed must a paper-width inside OB left to remain in the fairway?....Or is that the tee shot on this one and only line must be hit between 225 and 250 yards - no more, no less - to remain in play for approach? Is it the mostly blind second to a punchbowl green where the bowl is maintained as velcro-esque second cut, thus preventing balls from releasing into green?...Or is it the excruciating walk UP to the tee, DOWN to the fairway, UP to the green and UP steps to the next tee?  If you know Knollwood's extensive course history, it will make you pine for the Van Etten member course of the 1890s. Lastly, an elite tournament player of today will simply bash his 3 wood or driver over and through the inside corner to about 85 yards in the right rough...where he will gouge a 58 degree wedge...boring for him, but bad for us back at the tee.

#3 - Apawamis - 340 yds - Apawamis is the undisputed King of Quirk in these (or most any) parts but #3 (aptly named "Dipper") shows the arcane limitations of those turn of century Dunn, Park, Emmet routings which took the only plausible turns hilly, rocky properties would allow their builders. Though the fairway ends twice, at 255 and after with a second tiny pad at 290, the problem isn't the tee shot, which is actually kind of attractive if narrow. The issue is the approach which is played blind, over a 25 foot cliff to a tiny, vicious green with exposed rock and two framing bunkers, with death immediately beyond. Though shorter by a bit, this approach is kind of like playing #7 at Pebble from in front of the 6th green.


#4 - Rockrimmon CC 370 yds - This course is a mixture of 11 RTJ originals, and 7 Orrin Smith varied executions of the original RTJ 18 hole plan, so it's hard math as to where to assign the blame. The chief culprit here is a blind tee shot to a sunken fairway which is bisected and bordered on the left by connected ponds at 230 yards out from the tee...go 232 and you're in the drink....go 15 yards to the left, you're in the drink. Because that blind distance is right in the sweet netherworld of "too far to carry with driver" (for most) and "too short to chance catching a good 3-wood," 80% of players end up scaling way back with a hybrid or utility and thus leave themselves 155 to 180 yards to approach an otherwise mid short hole. Add to this that the green is only interesting when cut at 11+ and you have a pretty unsatisfactory sequence.

#5 - Pelham CC - 170 yds - Drop shot par 3s are usually uninteresting pulls of a slot-machine and unfortunately they make all too frequent appearance on Westchester courses, so there were several to pick from. Besides the usual boring absence of any strategic or tactical choices, this one gets particular pique for its shoehorned-in, up and back routing place in the property, the bland but smothering bunkers on three sides, and let us not forget the apartment complex that looms over the tee, which itself offers stunning views of I-95 in the distance.


#6 - Sleepy Hollow  475 yds - Sorry for the sacrilege of an otherwise treasured venue, but this hole stinks; it has always stunk, and until some broader, wider, shorter way of conquering the tee shot hill (an abrupt 25 foot rise of rough at 200 out requiring a carry of 230 - 240) is developed it will be one of the worst holes on a first rate course of historical interest... For the 75% of golfers who cannot conquer that hill combined with the 25% who try and fail, the hole is just a blind awful mess...requiring an 180 yard shot off the tee, a blind shot of 280 with none of the thrills of rescuing or tackling what is offered/conjured/praised (by some) as a half par hole. Those players who are still in play, but short of and/or buried in that hill essentially inaugurate a blind hole where none of the remaining features (Principal Nose, pinched approach, green contour) are seen or ventured...That Principal's Nose in particular has no meaning for any player ...if you're short of the hill off the tee, you can't see it, if you carry the hill, it's not in play...what is the point?


#7 Whippoorwill 415 yards - The Timeline review on this site gushes about Whippoorwill as a rediscovered gem of Banksian architecture and I'd love to go blow for blow with that entire piece, but I'll limit such a retort to including this hole (praised as a Wow moment and among W's best in that tour) in my rogues gallery of Classic Westchester... the tee shot plays more as a visual gimmick than brilliant routing find...you only apprehend the route of the hole, you don't see how to follow it as only the first corner of safe grass is visible and that's no line of play...plus, you discover that the optimum tee shot is 255 to 265, (no more ! no less!) aimed in the left rough...still the disappointment here is the "Punchbowl" green...which is no Punchbowl at all, just a suggestion of such features with a built up rim...an open run -up approach...and a green interior that is merely got a big pitch back to front, almost convex...(like a spreading shell-back) and the longish, uphill shot that the quizzical tee shot will leave most of us doesn't lend it itself to the contours properties...also the rear "rim" of the ball may prevent some hot shots from traveling long, but it doesn't release balls back into the surface...lastly, it is here that near every two shot hole at Whip will require a blind, uphill approach...by 13, you're tired of it...hard to get satisfaction from strategizing/enjoying to and around green contours you can't appreciate from the fairway most of the time...this hole is symptomatic of bad hilly property for a golf course...


#8 Hudson National 249/225/161 yds... This is a hole that's 90% forced carry over yellow-hazard wetlands to what was designed and existed for one season as a Biarritz green of 53 yards in front to back length. After season #1, 1996, the "trough" of the Biarritz was mostly "filled-in" and now presents as a more of a two tier affair (there is still a slight dip at the shelf).  In addition to the surface being just above eye-level, the steep 10 yards of approach turf before the green is maintained as closely mown, whereby shots that don't fully reach the front edge, roll back into the edge of/hazard itself, robbing the player of a lively up and down pursuit to save a 3, turning it into a unfortunate fight to go no more than 5... I put up the three men's tee numbers to illustrate just how vastly different the white and blue/black experience of the hole (and course) is...from the blue/black the hole is a hit and hope/medal play ender... from the white, it is a boring 6/7 iron to a 50 x 30 surface above eye level, with the hazard waiting for a scuffy hit...the only saving grace of this hole is the closely mown area to the immediate short-right of the surface, instituted in recent years.


#9 - Hampshire CC - 200 yds - What worse way to close a Worst Front Nine than with two consecutive one-shot holes?  The crime here is boring and uninspiring (and on a course with two other one-shots very like it in character)... it's no better than a range pad holding a "200 yard flag" ....a 25 x 20 oval surrounded by banal bunkers on three sides... (from 7 o clock to 4 o clock)...there's a slight dip across the yardage, but otherwise flat...the green has no special character or amusement...it's such a rote golf hole, when a long 1-shotter can hold such opportunities.  I have to concede that few would think to put Hampshire on a roster of Classic Westchester, but it does have vintage, an interesting property history and Emmet design bones in its sediment layers.  It actually has a worse reputation than it deserves, for it does have a handful of nice holes (2, 3, 12, 16, 18) and some holes that might be good if the property weren't confined by its neighborhood.







 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 10:38:14 AM by V. Kmetz »
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Peter Pallotta

Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2018, 12:00:28 PM »
A very enjoyable read, thanks VK.
Boy, judging from your descriptions, when the ODGs were bad they were really bad! (And I mean 'bad' not 'poor/weak' as in my 'why aren't there more bad courses' thread).
I wonder how come? I mean: when they finished holes #6 and #7, did they think "Yup, that works"  or did they think "Oh well, you win some, you lose some" or instead did they murmur "Ha! Let's see old Dr Whatshisname try to play *this* one" ?


MCirba

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2018, 12:46:24 PM »
Having played 3 of your 9, I would like to disagree but you seem to have the facts on your side.


Good to see some actual discussion of architecture, even if critical.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tim Martin

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2018, 01:06:22 PM »
Vin-Ardsley # 1 was low hanging fruit for sure. The holes could only get better after that. I am not a big fan of drop shot par threes either but I like Westchester CC South # 4. It’s a pretty dramatic shot at around 160 to carry the pond and the rock wall. It’s also got some interesting bunkers as well as that runoff area between the wall and the green. The early right pin position where the bunker comes directly into play is pretty scary. For those that require options you can only go the aerial route on this one.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 01:12:58 PM by Tim Martin »

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2018, 01:19:07 PM »
TM,


I haven't played the South in 30 years and since the Classic hasn't run for a decade, very few opportunities to even see it...but there's a handful of fun/interesting drop shots... Quaker #5...Century #13...the "Short" 4th at Whippoorwill (the Par 3s and #s 12, 15 and 18 are the only holes I find rewarding there)...


But in the more general sense, they tend to be a bearded lady...
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2018, 05:20:04 PM »



Vin

Thank you for your analysis.

I was involved in the process At Sleepy Hollow so will offer a few opinions on the hole.  I hope they are as thoughtful as yours are.  When was the last time you viewed the course?

I would agree with the basic yardages you have laid out though I would offer that the "lay-up" to the bottom fairway is over 200 with the change in elevation.

There are big and bold (as well as difficult) landforms all over the property and I think it is testament to the routing that many of the best holes are routed over the difficult spots.  #3,#4,#5,#15,#16. 

As for #6.

NEAR GREEN

A wonderful rippling front to back green with a false front and more than a few large pimples.  Perfect for a 4.5 hole.

The slightly rising last 180 yards of the hole including the Principals nose bunker are particularly well-done.

The PN bunker is built into a natural ridge and has room on both sides though the more generous and open side is the left.

The PN bunker is blind from the lower fairway but not entirely sure why that is a problem?  Aim what feels like much to far left and swing away as the fairway kicks left to right.  In addition, many of the players that do carry the hill will still be left with 210-220 playing uphill (with the dreaded long bunker shot near the green) so they will lay up as near to the PN bunker as possible. 

In short, I do think it is in play and obviously I am less bothered by the blindness of the hazard for some hitting from the lower fairway OR



TEE SHOT

I agree with your analysis though I would offer the "lay-up" is much longer than 180, perhaps as much as 200. I also tend to agree that the tee-shot is far from ideal BUT

Would there be a problem if the hole were a dogleg and flattish with no hill but a large hells half acre bunker complex from 210-240 out from the tee?  Maybe 260 to carry more inside of the dogleg? 

Why do people seem to accept bunkers off of the tee in not advantageous spots but have a problem with severe landforms?

Would this landform be "OK" if it were located 150 yards off the tee rather than 210?
Would the landform be more acceptable if it were maintained at fairway height? That is a steep fairway area that I am sure would be problematic to maintain but would "look" less hazardous? 

I ask when you last played Vin because I think many people play/think of this in the context of the pre-2015 hole when there were many more trees and high grass to theright on the inside of the dogleg (the longest area to carry). 

The other neat/newer thing is that the trees on the left part of the ridge have been removed and the fairway above the ridge on the left has been linked with the #5 fairway.  The ridge runs (looking from tee) from 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock.  It is a much shorter carry, providing a better second shot view if the player plays to the outside of the dogleg where the player can carry the ridge (about 185) yards but have a much longer second shot (230 uphill avoid PN bunker). 

The latter route was previously not available and I am constantly shocked that few seem to pick it up though I must acknowledge I tend to aim a little right of optimal if the course is crowded. 

The upper #6 shares a fairway with #5 and since it was over-treed for most of the life of the club people have still not accepted that the land allows a better, safer route albeit longer.

Look forward to meeting up and showing you this in person. 









MCirba

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2018, 06:55:11 PM »
Now we're talking architecture!  Great stuff guys.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2018, 07:58:00 PM »
CM,


I appreciate your detailed reply/mitigation...I haven't played it since 2010, but I did take a drive on the course last year in May (2017) and did apprehend the tie-ins with 5 and the clean-up of the wild lands on the inside corner. I concede that the hole's tee shot can't help but be better with this, but I haven't yet played it that way....but wasn't the old way an absolute trainwreck?


As to what you asked (what would solve the issue of that hill and its place on the hole)...I think the appearance of the sharp hill at a lesser yardage (140 to 175) would change things immeasurably...as if the entire hole could be shifted/pushed east about 60 yards...Then that hill would be an amusing, rewarding, carry - "solvable" is the word I like to use.


I maintain disagreement about the spirit and fact of how the PNose plays/appears...for me there is no earthly point in having an artificial homage feature notorious enough to look like something (a Nose) but have it either invisible (from below the hill) or easily carried (from on top of it)... I'm not saying every last thing has to be appreciated understood the first play, but one is really lost if they play it infrequently.


cheers  vk


"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

jeffwarne

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2018, 09:13:05 AM »
Great stuff.


I always enjoyed the 6th at Sleepy and its (formerly) use of the heroic(now routine with modern distance) tee shot. I look forward to seeing the changes Corey highlights.
Apawamis has always been one of my favorites and enjoy the uniqueness of every hole-even #3- though I haven't played it since the equipment explosion.
Whippoorwill has several holes that vie for top "dog"-your choice is as worthy as others.
Not sure how a hole at HN (Fazio circa 1990's) got placed on a classic course list(usually pre 1950) ...


But your list of classic course holes you don't like wouldn't even crack the Bad Top 50 if you were to include several other of the high end moderns in Westchester
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 09:13:00 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2018, 09:38:09 AM »
Perhaps this should have it's own thread, but wouldn't the 1st at Ardsley be a serious contender for the worst starting hole on the planet?
The only ones I can think of off the top of my head that compete would be the 1st hole at the Orange Nine of Mountain Manor Golf Club (sadly NLE) in the Poconos which was about 330 yards long, playing like 440 on about a 100 foot elevation climb, the 1st hole at Mount Airy Lodge in the Poconos, which is also up a ski-slope but this being a par five has a blind pond water hazard intersecting the fairway from 150 yards in, and the 1st at the Fazio course at PGA National in Florida, a par five where the unwary golfer is given at least three chances to lose a sleeve of balls to start their round.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 09:45:11 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2018, 10:36:33 AM »
Great stuff.

I always enjoyed the 6th at Sleepy and its (formerly) use of the heroic(now routine with modern distance) tee shot. I look forward to seeing the changes Corey highlights.
Apawamis has always been one of my favorites and enjoy the uniqueness of every hole-even #3- though I haven't played it since the equipment explosion.
Whippoorwill has several holes that vie for top "dog"-your choice is as worthy as others.
Not sure how a hole at HN (Fazio circa 1990's) got placed on a classic course list ...


But your list of classic course holes you don't like wouldn't even crack the Bad Top 50 if you were to include several other of the high end moderns in Westchester


JW -


I vexed over Hudson's inclusion, believe me...but while not qualifying for a vintage classic, it's a wildly rated course, by a significant designer...the last Aswan Dam construction type that will be built for 100 or more years... like 150,000 cubic yards of blasted granite.


But indeed, your point(s) are well taken if Trump Briarcliff,  CC of Purchase, Brynwood (Canyon Club) would/should/could have holes on the list if Hudson "qualfied."


cheers  vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2018, 01:54:29 AM »
Interesting that you list the 9th at Hampshire as the worst 9th in Westchester County.  Though certainly not epic, it is simply a tough slightly uphill ball buster par 3.  The real pieces of s___ on that restoration vandalism victim, are the 4th, 8th, and 13th---only an incompetent would plant trees on the inside of a dogleg right with water and bunkers down the right!  The expense of the work contributed significantly to the club's bankruptcy
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 01:59:11 AM by Robert Mercer Deruntz »

V. Kmetz

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2018, 04:35:23 PM »
just putting them together
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2018, 05:13:20 PM »
V:


I grew up playing Pelham Country Club and am pretty sure one side of my house was built from rocks that were cleared to build the course.


As for the 5th, I always enjoyed, though at ten years old I was the student of golf architecture I would become.


Two other thoughts:


Pelham Country Club in the 1960s was a great place, a great environment for golf. There were plenty of grumpy old men that taught young kids brave enough to venture onto the course to move along. Slow play wasn’t tolerated.


On a completely different note, I would love someone to find documentation of the NLE existing 9 Hole course that Dr. Edward Fowler built in the vicinity of Fowler Avenue. My understanding in that the course started and ended on top of the hill where OLPH church now stands.


I would love to know the routing of Dr. Fowler’s course.
Tim Weiman

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2018, 07:14:44 PM »
TW,


Your comment provokes me to qualify all my remarks in the spirit of board humor/gca talk in which they were intended; I don't hate any hole (well, some of them)...I've lived and worked and played all the Westchester (and Fairfield) Co tracks as my biography and it amuses me to no end that some of the game's historic (and local) greats have been confronted with these holes and come away pissed and grumpy as I have been...and watched so many golfers, hi and lo, come to ruin on them.


Your Fowler course intrigues the obsessive researchnik in me...was this in Pelham/Pelham Manor? What era was this course in existence?


cheers  vk



"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2018, 12:50:55 PM »
V:


I recall reading somewhere that Dr. Fowler’s course was in Pelham Manor with the present site of OLPH church (Boston Post Road & Fowler Avenue) as the start and ending location for the course. If you look at the topography it kind of makes sense, offering a downhill start and uphill finish.


Not sure of the exact date Fowler laid out the course, but it had to be before residential development took place. I think that puts it around 1900 - 1910.


I lived on Fowler Avenue (528 Fowler to be exact) and I recall the house and a few close to it were built around 1920 or just around the time work began or was completed on what became the original Pelham Country Club (before the construction of I-95).


The interesting thing is that Fowler appears to have had much more interesting land to work with than the land that became PCC.


Would love to know the routing.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 03:56:01 PM by Tim_Weiman »
Tim Weiman

Neil Regan

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2018, 12:14:02 AM »

Here is a section of a map of Pelham from 1910, showing Fowler Ave.
The future Pelham CC is on the land south of the Turnpike.
I see no signs of an earlier course on this map, but that of course is not conclusive evidence.
Perhaps the course was on some of the same land as the current Pelham CC ?







https://www.davidrumsey.com/uv/index.html?manifestUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidrumsey.com%2Fluna%2Fservlet%2Fiiif%2Fm%2FRUMSEY~8~1~29944~1140245%2Fmanifest#?c=0&m=0&s=0&cv=0&r=270&xywh=5244%2C4113%2C1976%2C3234



Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Neil Regan

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Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2018, 02:51:04 PM »
Neil,


Wow! I am extremely grateful for your contribution to this thread. I guess what I had read a while back was true. Amazing!


On a completely different note, I would love to hear how Fouad Ajami’s wife is doing. When you mentioned her several years back I couldn’t believe what a small world it is.


Thanks again.
Tim Weiman

corey miller

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2018, 08:45:39 PM »



VK

I wanted to circle back to you in regard to #6 Sleepy after an interesting round with three raters.  Yes, The trifecta, a Golf Digest, a golf week and a Golf.  Mum on who is the most savvy. ;D


I will make no claim that the tee-shot is ideal but I strongly disagree with the notion that the P Nose bunker does not work and is un-needed.  Again, a severely sloped front to back green (no spots unpinnable or unplayable) with a few neat Macdonald pimples.  Perfect for a 4.5 par hole. 


The principals nose bunker is 100 yards from the green and has room on both sides to play in order for the best angle based on hole location.  Going past this bunker also brings the "greenside" bunkers in play which can leave a twenty of thirty yard bunker shot.  In essence, it is a real choice to "not go" for the green in two because anything short might present you with this long bunker shot.


as for the group yesterday.


I hit a ~230 yard tee shot down the left (toward the hill that must be crested on #5)  to the shortest carry on the diagonal hill/hazard (the others thought even after hitting it that it was too far left until they arrived at the ball and saw what was left) and was left with ~230 uphill.  Hit six  iron up right side and was just right of PN bunker. wedge and two putt for 5.


Golfweek guy-Hit a three wood playing to the lower fairway, again plays about 200.  hit a six iron to about 160 on upper fairway but where the slight ridge runs across.  hit poor shot into left bunker. wedged on green and three puts for 7


Golf Guy- tried to cut off as much as possible on tee shot hit it around 230  and wound up in rough on right side of upper fairway with 210 in but with a sidehill type lie as he did not make the fairway.  lay up much farther up the fairway taking PN out of play but flirting with the left greenside bunker complex ~30 yards from green.  pitched up and three putted for a 6


Golf Digest guy- hit ~240/250 to the safest area on top and was left with ~220 in.  hit a three wood that landed/rolled onto green between the narrow entrance but false front knocked it back onto edge of green.  chipped up and sank a putt and made 4.


I am not saying the hole is one of the best, but I do think you need to reevaluate (based on Westchester county having more than a few 420 yard par fours with moderately interesting greens but fairways so narrow that they lack any strategic or fun element) this hole when you have a great green (one of the best in Westchester), a half par hole,  a natural setting (would it be better if a modern guy dynamited the hill into oblivion or better filled the valley creating a wider landing zone ala Hudson National?), a great bunkering concept, and four players shooting four different scores (birdie to double bogey) on the hole using four different strategies on both the first as well as second shots.   




Neil Regan

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Re: Worst Holes in Classic Westchester - Front Nine
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2018, 02:34:50 AM »



Corey,


  That is a classic example.
I think you could diagram that like the old cigarette cards, Can You Beat Bogey.
The backside of each card told how one of the 3 players in the group played the hole.
They were Mr. Tiger, Mr. Rabbit, and Mr. Everyman.
You could be the 4th.


Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

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