News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
What can this site achieve?
« on: March 23, 2013, 01:52:39 PM »
Does this site have the power to shape the future of golf course architecture?  Can it be a powerful voice if posters are afraid or reluctant to voice negative opinions and valid critiques?

Bart

Peter Pallotta

Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2013, 02:19:35 PM »
Bart - intuitively, I think it's the opposite, i.e any power this site might have comes from the positive comments, ones that encourage/praise certain approaches to design; while negative opinions and critiques (perhaps no matter how valid) end up with little power/effect, given that anyone already in the business can so easily discount those as the uninformed griping of amateur purists. I don't mean to discourage such comments, especially when they are honest expressions of thoughtful posters -- but I do think the 'light' leads the way better than the darkness.

Peter

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2013, 02:37:25 PM »
This group, once you get beyond the members who make a living in golf, is really just a fairly large focus group.  I would think that both positive and negative commentary, if serious and frank, would be beneficial to those who make decisions about golf course architecture.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2013, 03:16:12 PM »
Bart,

I know some people, myself included, don't like being too critical. However, I think there is a place for open discussion even if at times its critical.

For instance, it would be really useful at times if when a course is criticised and there are people on the forum who know it well or have even been involved personally with the design, if they could come in with a little insight to the process. There may be restrictions or site conditions or client brief that lead the hole or the course to be developed in a certain way. If the person being critical was informed of this then perhaps they would understand how the course developed as it did?

I know I've designed a few buildings where certain conditions meant it couldn't be designed or built as I would really have liked. I've then heard criticism of it not being built in a certain way, but when I've enlightened the critic, though they still havent liked the building, they have at least understood why its that way.

This kind of criticism and constructive response would certainly help this site immensely!

Cheers,

James
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 04:06:12 PM by James Boon »
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2013, 03:38:19 PM »
Hasn't this site achieved a lot already?

What more should it do, Bart?
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2013, 03:45:03 PM »
Does this site have the power to shape the future of golf course architecture?  Can it be a powerful voice if posters are afraid or reluctant to voice negative opinions and valid critiques?

Bart

I'm not sure the impact of this site can be measured.  Have any of the architects been influenced by what has been said here?
As for negative opinions, what irritates me are negative comments on courses that folks haven't even played. Some guys speak with perceived authority who don't speak from actual experience.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2013, 03:53:42 PM »
Hasn't this site achieved a lot already?

What more should it do, Bart?

Mac

It is just a question.  I don't know the answer.  Do you think it could or can do more?

Bart

Emile Bonfiglio

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 03:59:37 PM »
Hasn't this site achieved a lot already?

What more should it do, Bart?

Mac

It is just a question.  I don't know the answer.  Do you think it could or can do more?

Bart

I think that you have seen some evolution with things like Jim's HHH, Rob Rigg and True Linkswear. Are they directly associated with GCA...not exactly but its cool to see them develop from conversation on this forum.
You can follow me on twitter @luxhomemagpdx or instagram @option720

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2013, 04:47:55 PM »
Hasn't this site achieved a lot already?

What more should it do, Bart?

Mac

It is just a question.  I don't know the answer.  Do you think it could or can do more?

Bart

Bart...

I think the site has done a lot.  I just had a conversation with a 17 year old kid at the course I'm a member of about GCA.com.  We were randomly paired together as walkers one early evening.  About hole 3, or so, I asked him if he thought about college yet.  He said, "Yes.  I want to go to Cornell and study Golf Course/Landscape Architecture."  I asked him if he'd heard of GCA.com.  He said that he had and that he picked up the idea to read Anatomy of a Golf Course from this site and his most desired golf course to play was Cape Kidnappers.

This is not the only person I've heard mentioned GCA.com on the golf course.  In fact, quite a few have.

This builds on what Tommy said, I'm not sure the impact can be measured.  But, like Adam's Lawrence's article in the latest Links magazine discussed...minimalists have been making a huge impact on the world of golf course architeture and this site, by and large, espouses that mantra and mindset.  Can't say for sure whether this site was the biggest reason for that impact, but it certainly doesn't hurt the cause.



What more can it do?  I'd say keep up the frank and honest commentary.  This is supposed to be a marketing/advertising free website, so no one should be taken aback or put off by comments that are frank, honest, insightful, but not positive.  Opinions and ideas need to be circulated and, hopefully, backed up by reasons and specifics...not blanket unsupported statements.  That is Course X is great...Course Y sucks.  Rather WHY are they good, in your opinion, or WHY do they suck.


Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2013, 07:13:30 PM »


[/quote]

Bart...

I think the site has done a lot.  I just had a conversation with a 17 year old kid at the course I'm a member of about GCA.com.  We were randomly paired together as walkers one early evening.  About hole 3, or so, I asked him if he thought about college yet.  He said, "Yes.  I want to go to Cornell and study Golf Course/Landscape Architecture."  I asked him if he'd heard of GCA.com.  He said that he had and that he picked up the idea to read Anatomy of a Golf Course from this site and his most desired golf course to play was Cape Kidnappers.

[/quote]

I think Mac's statement exemplifies the real area in which this site can really make a difference. It's not simply about trying to directly influence the thinking of those at the top of the food chain, it's about creating a ground swell amongst ordinary golfers who will then in turn influence the industry.

'Sweet shop' golf isn't going to disappear from the face of the planet but more and more education here leads to more and more education at club level and subsequently more and more appreciate of the underlying principles so cherished by those of us that frequent this site.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2013, 07:47:52 PM »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2013, 09:18:04 PM »
Gentlemen,
What can this site achieve?
I think a main achievement would be to alert other golfers to what fine golf architecture can be about. To enlighten and enthuse a clutch of players who can then, as Paul and Mac intimate, go on to influence, albeit in small ways, the ongoing development of their local golf course using the insights they will have garnered from Golf Club Atlas. To this end I often spout forth about this site to any golfing partners I am playing with. Often I will get a positive response a few weeks later. Lo and behold the word is spread! One of the beauties of GCA is that individuals can access the threads and "lurk" to their hearts content.

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2013, 09:59:14 AM »
Colin makes a great point that GCA.com has a meaningful impact on a broad spectrum of Golfers, one at a time.

I have often argued that the potential of GCA.com is under tapped.  This site has enviable rankings in Google:

  Golf Architecture - 1st
  Pine Valley - 4th
  Eastward Ho Golf Course - 2nd
  Bethpage Black - 4th
  Minchinhampton Old - 5th

Yes, GCA.com is lost on searches of major venues such as Pebble Beach, but that doesn't change the fact that material posted here, especially in the Courses by Country section, are widely and readily presented to people.

In as much as golfclubatlas.com represents a perspective on golf architecture, I think there's more that could be done to make it more influential.

One is the indexing of the Discussion Group.   Here's the link to Sean's write up on Minchinhampton Old.  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=48765.0;wap2. Instead of indexing the main HTML version of the DG the site appears to be setup to index only the old wireless low-bandwidth wap layout.  That means when people search for terms where GCA.com discussion group topics are the de facto authoritative commentary, they get the clunky, photo free wap2 layout.

Two is the organization of the course specific material.  Ran's write-ups are easily found, but the discussion group material is buried, and the search function is unique.  If the site could be extended to have the better/richer course commentary organized and indexed so that it was directly accessible from Google, it would be a big plus to users interested in finding details on a course.

Third, people respond to rankings and ratings.  If once material was organized by course, people who find golfclubatlas.com course info could see a score or ranking reflecting the GCA.com perspective on the course, they would pay attention, and it would have a real impact.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2013, 10:54:24 AM »
David,

That summary should be very useful to Ran, assuming it is what he and Ben want. I personally hope that they want it.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2013, 11:20:19 AM »
Many who are on GCA.com today found the site by Googling a famous course and finding Ran's profile.  The profiles are to me the soulf of GCA.com while the discussion group is the pumping heart!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2013, 11:21:13 AM »
Have any of the architects been influenced by what has been said here?


I recall one gca who admitted as much to me in private. It became obvious in his new work, and he was acknowledged for it.

It's been pretty obvious to my, far removed from the business eye, that the proof of gca's impact on architecture is everywhere. Even if that impact was only as a catalyst, through the spreading of information. IMo, The tipping point came after "minimalists blues" debuted at the ASCGA meeting. Way back when. Before that, there was some serious beard pulling, usually in the form of 10,000 word short essays from TePaul, generously shared, on the smallest of minutiae. Those soon led to real world examples like Mark Struder's informing us all, of Oakmont's transformation, shortly followed by Shinneything's, back when the software wouldn't let you write cock and would auto-correct "thingy". It was palpable how the discussion of core principles was disseminating. Some were listening and learning, and others started rebelling. One anecdote TePaul once described was how humbly, an ancient member of one green committee, admitted that "they didn't know" planting all those trees would strangle their golf course.

In 2014, at Pinehurst #2 on Father's day weekend, (and the subsequent one) we will see the influence on how impact-full Ran's folly has been on the golf world. Folly indeed!

  
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2013, 12:08:19 PM »
Bart's reason for the thread centres around the second sentence in the original post, not the first one. Sadly, the reality is that posters are afraid / reluctant to voice negative opinions and valid critiques and the discussion suffers as a result. Let's call a spade a spade - it's hard to be impartial and objective about courses on the site when people take such offence to having their home club (or the club they have a vested interest in seeing succeed financially) criticised - frankly, I don't get it - I'm the first one to acknowledge the shortfalls of my home course (good course though it is) because what credibility would I have if I said it was the best in the land - ultimately I want to see it get better and that's not going to happen if noone at the club will admit there is room for improvement. 



Brian, exactly.  Bart is one of the sharper guys on this site.  He knows the impact that GCA.com has had and is a huge proponent.  I haven't spoken with Bart about this, but I feel confident the point of this thread is clearly his second sentence about honest criticism.  In my opinion, the fact that this thread can be interpreted in part as a criticism of the site requiring a defense is somewhat symptomatic of the core issue.  If GCA.com is to reach its full potential, we as participants have to embrace honest criticism.  Honest opinions shouldn't be something to fear.  The positive voice is fabulously strong here, as it should be.  But true credibility comes with the balance of the dissenting opinion.  No doubt this website has had an impact far greater than Ran or anyone else could have ever imagined.  Fostering an environment that truly encourages well reasoned criticism will allow it to achieve even greater heights.


Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2013, 07:57:46 PM »
Would Doak and Coore/Crenshaw be the most in demand architects in the country without this site?  Would Rustic Canyon be as appreciated as it is?  Would Hanse have been picked as the architect for the Olympics absent this site?  Would Pinehurst have been willing to rip out all rough on its Number 2 Course?  Would as much tree removal have happened on lesser renowned courses without this site?  Would the US Open have become more flexible in its set up over the last few years?

I don't know the answer to those questions but I suspect this site has played a role in all of those developments.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2013, 09:26:10 PM »
Would Doak and Coore/Crenshaw be the most in demand architects in the country without this site?  Would Rustic Canyon be as appreciated as it is?  Would Hanse have been picked as the architect for the Olympics absent this site?  Would Pinehurst have been willing to rip out all rough on its Number 2 Course?  Would as much tree removal have happened on lesser renowned courses without this site?  Would the US Open have become more flexible in its set up over the last few years?

I don't know the answer to those questions but I suspect this site has played a role in all of those developments.


There's no question this site has given me a platform to speak more in the public eye, and that has benefitted my career.

However, of everything listed above, I think the first development is the least attributable to Golf Club Atlas.  Coore and Crenshaw and my company are the most sought-after architects today because we designed the two highest-rated courses of the modern era, according to every one of the major magazines.  Sand Hills' reputation was already set before Golf Club Atlas started, and though Pacific Dunes was just about to be built, I don't know that the fledgling GCA had much to do with its place, either.

I also don't think Gil's winning the Olympic commission had much of anything to do with this site.  The people who did the choosing don't spend any time here, and Gil had gotten to know them through other avenues.

Kris Shreiner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2013, 08:36:53 AM »
I believe this site has moved the meter on many levels. No golf forum, especially given its small size and budget, delivers more depth and quality content across the golf spectrum than GCA.  You always have the negative elements, but in the main, GCA has raised the bar on what the game, and those that really care about a healthy future for it, should be reflecting on and trying to address.  If those who have their hands on the game at higher levels would evaluate their actions more prudently, and check greed in at the locker room...golf would be better for it!

With a fairly decent cross-section represented(though more women golfers contributing, with perceptive input, would be a plus), Ran's noble effort has certainly elevated appreciation for golf architecture and the many facets that surround it.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 03:55:59 PM by Kris Shreiner »
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

Jeffrey Stein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2013, 01:07:32 PM »
Have any of the architects been influenced by what has been said here?


I recall one gca who admitted as much to me in private. It became obvious in his new work, and he was acknowledged for it.

It's been pretty obvious to my, far removed from the business eye, that the proof of gca's impact on architecture is everywhere. Even if that impact was only as a catalyst, through the spreading of information. IMo, The tipping point came after "minimalists blues" debuted at the ASCGA meeting. Way back when. Before that, there was some serious beard pulling, usually in the form of 10,000 word short essays from TePaul, generously shared, on the smallest of minutiae. Those soon led to real world examples like Mark Struder's informing us all, of Oakmont's transformation, shortly followed by Shinneything's, back when the software wouldn't let you write cock and would auto-correct "thingy". It was palpable how the discussion of core principles was disseminating. Some were listening and learning, and others started rebelling. One anecdote TePaul once described was how humbly, an ancient member of one green committee, admitted that "they didn't know" planting all those trees would strangle their golf course.

In 2014, at Pinehurst #2 on Father's day weekend, (and the subsequent one) we will see the influence on how impact-full Ran's folly has been on the golf world. Folly indeed!

  

I for one have been positively influenced by the comments, questions, and criticisms I have read on GCA.com since joining the discussion group in 2009.  I actually started reading the discussion group in 2008 as a college senior.  During this time, along with my correspondence with Tom Doak and Ian Andrew, inspired me to go after a career in golf design.  My point being that this forum made the field of golf design seem accessible and not so much of an enigma.  There are thousands of niche businesses/industries out there, golf design is just the one I wanted to be a part of and GCA.com provides a way in.

If there are any other aspiring golf architects out there, they will certainly find this "place" and hopefully join the growing community of enthusiasts, like myself, who care about inspiring golf architecture.
I love the smell of hydroseed in the morning.
www.steingolf.com

Charlie_Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2013, 04:33:21 PM »
At the school where I teach, a student may occasionally take on a "special project" in lieu of a sport for one season.  Last fall, a 10th grade girl with an interest in golf approached me and asked me to sponsor her project in golf course architecture.  GCA became a major resource for us, and I was thrilled to learn that she began reading the site on her own, quite apart from doing various assignments that obligated her to visit here.

If the value for this one young person is any measure, I'd say with confidence that the site has the potential to shape the future of golf course architecture.

Mike Schott

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2013, 04:54:15 PM »
All this site needs to do is raise awareness of lay of the land architecture. Increasing the awareness of using natural features to create strategic interest as opposed to overbuilt courses is it's primary feature IMO. It's certainly done this for me and I came here to find deeper discussion about GCA than I could find in other golf forums.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2013, 02:26:14 AM »
For me this site is, has been, should remain singular is because...

1.  It is light, openess, exposure. Certainly you may have to dig through threads, topics, posts #25-250 to catch it, but this site is simply good raw information...even in the exchange of opinion, but certainly through the factual weigh-in on topics of the board's creation. Pictures, quotations and voluminous research in addition to first-hand accounts may result in a different conclusion than their presenter channeled it to us, but the raw factum is here, more than anywhere else on any database in the Golf realms that I have been aware of, and I've spent 30 years immersed in cognitive reverie for the game.  If you and I have a parallel "thirst" for the game beyond its playing, then perhaps you share my sense that it is more often quaffed here than any other non-playing venue.  The annoyances and vigorous OT diversions tend to be the only area where the "heat" is greater than the "light" and we all go through self-reflection to govern that.  The "light" remains much greater than the sometimes withering "heat."

2.  Variety.  Outside of pure conjured silliness, can you think of one area of golf--from drainage to hot dogs, from Best of to Worst of, from  Template holes to Native grasses and anything under the sun in this fascinating game that is not covered by a post and response in this venue?  I really can't.  In concert with its wide exposure, cited in #1, this is akin to a Library of Alexandria on the sport and its many avenues.  Certainly GCA is rightfully the core mass from where all is magnetized, but even in our silly adjuncts of comparing Trevino to someone, frequent jots on slow play, and a thousand or more satellite interests, this site ends up being the finest comprehensive "journal" on the Game that has ever been...we have rolled the distant past, the intermediate past, the present and the speculations of future directions all into one locale...That's the board, its interviews, its course tours, its timeline, its specialized features and its experienced IMO pieces in concert with one another in one location...rather easily searchable (unlike many of the academic data bases I've encountered).  I do not want to hear about Arab Spring, Nukes in North Korea, Sequestration and proclamations of national interest, but "Drivable 5s," "tiger is Back" "Finest Clubhouses in Europe"...bring it on; I might just have something to offer or express.

3.  Many Voices.  I trust many voices, many armchairs, many experts, many experiences, specific first hand accounts, and specific first hand accounts verified by other ones.  It infuses me with a confidence that no one is going to talk and walk wrong bullshit about Olympic or Pebble or Hazeltine, because its likely that someone hand with first hand, demonstrable knowledge is going to speak.  If someone said incorrectly, that a Winged Foot hole had been altered or was originally named this, or once played at this yardage in the 29 Open...you can take it to the bank that myself or a chorus of others who are there with some frequency are going to edit the erroneous, verifiably so. Those with the most experience of the most places and the most subjects can sometimes wield that like a hammer, but eventually others become as learned and either join or dissent from that imperium, creating either its firmament or its new and evolved foundation.

So the site has achieved a lot and who knows how valuable it will be to later generations.  It is an ultimate compendium of golf that fuses together leading contemporary and historical opinion with the hard evidence from a variety of dedicated voices intimately involved with the game, in all its architectures... surrounding the fundamental architecture of the course.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What can this site achieve?
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2013, 06:09:08 AM »
From years of lurking and recently some posting I would suggest enthusiasm and friendliness, expertise, global variety, knowledge, education, historical research and present historical referencing (what is current will one day be history) are all strengths - and I reckon these strengths remain when threads and posts stay firstly, on the golf message and secondly, when coloured writing and large size letters are not used.

All the best.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back