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John Kirk

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #100 on: June 25, 2013, 12:59:30 AM »
I can't resist that I have the coveted 100th post, sitting there on top of the page.  Page 5.  This is what our west coast correspondents are supposed to do.  Take it all in and give their best opinion.

If it's firm, it will be one of the firmest U.S. Open courses in history.  Some parts of greens are inaccessible, even with the recent wet weather.

Garland Bayley

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #101 on: June 25, 2013, 01:07:13 AM »
Rich, et al,

I can't think of a course that I've played that penalizes marginal shots the way CB does.  It compounds errors much more than you all are giving credit.  It combines the fun of fescue golf with the impossibility of execution that other famous brutes possess..  It's very unique in that respect.  

I have seen players unable to escape front bunkers on 5 and 17 at Pac Dunes. Those can be quite the penalties for marginal shots. No way to escape when over the cliff on the ocean holes. Those can be quite the penalties for marginal shots. If I hit a good drive and go for the green in two at 7, my best shot is most likely going to be penalized. I have never hit a good shot into the wind at 10 at Pac Dunes. I have been dead each time after the tee shot.

Those that have read my posts know I prefer Chambers Bay to Pac Dunes.

Let's not even talk about going slightly left of the green at 6 at Pac Dunes.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kirk

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #102 on: June 25, 2013, 02:10:29 AM »
A big difference between us is my love of the sand game.  I like the sand and will get up and down from all over the place, as long as I understand the stand.

Chambers Bay has dark gray sand that is very heavy, very different than what I know.  I'd suggest the heavy sand will be hard for the pros to adjust to.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #103 on: June 25, 2013, 09:01:41 AM »
The intimidation factor of the galleries and being on national TV will add 10 strokes alone

John McCarthy

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #104 on: June 25, 2013, 09:35:25 AM »
John:

The pros adjust to sand very, very quickly.  As long as the sand is consistent then the natural texture will present very little challenge. Now if one bunker was wet and the next dry, then that is different.  Those guys are masters coming out of the sand.

The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

Jerry Kluger

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #105 on: June 25, 2013, 04:12:39 PM »
My recollection was the impossibility of climbing back up out of some of the sandy areas on the uphill holes.  I cannot imagine Fluff carrying Furyk's bag back up one of those sandhills.

At the US Am the best players made it through to the late rounds and they really learned how to play the course which convinces me that the pros will learn it as well.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #106 on: June 25, 2013, 05:42:19 PM »
Sand is a piece of cake for the pros
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Richard Choi

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #107 on: June 25, 2013, 06:27:03 PM »
I agree sand by itself is not a big deal for the pros, but there are a couple of added elements to make it more interesting.

The first is the slope. In many of the largest waste areas, you will end up with a pretty severe side slope.

Second, many of these waste areas are dotted with rough islands and many of your shots will roll right up against the lip. Based on my experience, you will encounter this about quarter to third of the times.

I think hitting the sand will probably end up costing you close to half a stroke.

Sean Leary

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #108 on: June 25, 2013, 07:26:26 PM »
Rich, et al,

I can't think of a course that I've played that penalizes marginal shots the way CB does.  It compounds errors much more than you all are giving credit.  It combines the fun of fescue golf with the impossibility of execution that other famous brutes possess..  It's very unique in that respect.  

I disagree with this somewhat. There are so many backboards and sideboards that many marginal shots end up better than they should...Now on the sides where there is trouble, I agree that it can be penal.

Sean Leary

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #109 on: June 25, 2013, 07:30:13 PM »


#7 - In a previous round a few years ago, I distinctly remember using the big backstop on my second shot, though my playing partners insist this was not the case.  From a reasonable tee, say 450-460, I can cut the corner with a 225 yard carry, and leave myself 170-190 yards uphill.  I remember hitting a big 5-iron left, making sure to not come up short, and having the ball kick down onto the green for a two putt par.  The modifications, a small trough between the green and slope, make this impossible.  The current green is pretty wild, though the group behind hit three nice approaches to two putt range.  From the back tees, I played it driver, 6-iron, 8-iron.



I will vouch for you , JK. I played with you in that round and you did do exactly that on 7.

Garland Bayley

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #110 on: June 25, 2013, 08:22:15 PM »
So Sean,

How much were you paying me for every stroke under 150?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean Leary

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #111 on: June 25, 2013, 08:53:12 PM »
So Sean,

How much were you paying me for every stroke under 150?


101 is pretty good playing for someone with your ability. Well done.

Michael Essig

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #112 on: June 25, 2013, 09:16:50 PM »
I will finally share my thoughts.  The pros will find every fairway unless the USGA narrows them down - I found all but two.  I have broken 80 each of the four times I played CB from the sand tees (6500 yards), but shot a 95 on Sunday.  All thanks to my awful wedge game and over-reading putts all day long.

Choi, don't know why you had such a tough time putting; I have experienced your short game abilities first hand, and can only assume you suffered from being too far away from the pin - something I will get to later.  Two putting from a distance at CB is not an easy task.

As I said that day over lunch, Matthew (my son) who was a marshal at the US Am said the balls were rolling out approximately 50 yards at the Am; on Sunday our balls rolled out 5 yards and mine went sideways and backwards on #13 - just what one needs on a 530 yard par 4 - despite hitting the fairway.

At the US Am, some unreceptive greens were the problem for the competitors.  Balls that landed on a front portion of the green would roll off the back.  Again, only some of the greens.  As a result, they reworked some of the greens to make them more accessible and receptive.  As Kirk stated, the average score at the AM was 79ish.  That is a big number for the best amateurs in the world.

Fortunately, when you are on the correct level, the greens are fairly flat.  I see a lot of 15 and 20 foot putts getting made by the pros.  Granted, that is evaluating them at the slower speed we encountered.  

Which raises the following issues for me: 1) Are the landing areas in front of the greens or the greens themselves going to receive the shots demanded of the very long distances at CB, making it difficult for the pros to find the correct position on the greens?  Or, 2) Are they going to be left hitting lag putts from 50 feet the entire day and draining the ensuing five footers?

I think the green set-up is everything, and as everyone has stated, if they firm up the greens, the scores could go very high because they will never get the ball on the right level and therefore will not make enough birdies to make up for their inevitable mistake or two.  

At many US Open courses, they have the rough as a defense along with the slope and speed of the greens.  At CB, there really isn't that much rough that comes into play, the greens can't get to 13, and the waste areas on many holes are very playable.  I think the pros will find it easy to stay out of whatever rough the USGA sends their way, and as long as they don’t hit into the side hill of the waste areas, they have too much control not to find themselves greenside with a chance of up and down for par.

The sand is unusual, but I wonder if the issue was the weight of the sand as much as anything on Sunday.  On #16, there was only a little sand in the bunker, which is why I was able to come out to a very tight pin position, green above me and spin the ball.  The lack of sand made it fairly easy to execute the shot.  Obviously, my uphill travails on #9 were a different story; I just couldn't get myself into a comfortable position, thought I might take too much sand, so I took a big swing, got too much sand as I had figured, and the ball moved 3 feet - twice.  Most pros would have probably exited the sand, re-entered, found the right stance (no matter how long it took), and executed properly.  I have no such patience.  When you have long bunker carries, and CB has a lot of them, I don't understand having deep fine sand.  Or worse, deep fine sand that is heavy.

Chambers calls itself a links course, but plays nothing like one.  Did any of us think about hitting a low running shot the entire day?  We thought about landing it short in hopes that it would bounce forward, but not what I call a running shot - 4 extra clubs, take a half-swing, land the ball halfway to the green and watch the ball bound towards the green.  Never.  That shot is always on my mind, but never saw the opportunity.  Saw Kirk putt from about 30 yards off the green once, and I from a little shorter distance.  In contrast, at Bandon Trails I putted downhill from about 60 yards once, hit a 7-iron downhill pitch from 90 yards – only carrying it 20 yards and watched in bound and roll the remaining 70 yards, punched a 5-iron from 140 yards (70 yards of carry and 70 of roll) at Portmarnock, etc.  Just routine stuff at a links course, but I just don't see that shot making any sense at CB - too many greens tucked around bunkers.  So, if that shot isn't available, how do you get the ball close on greens that won't receive something from the air?  Only the perfect shot?  Brent on #9 - a drawing 6-iron down a 60-foot drop-shot 220-yard hole (my apologies Brent if you hit less than a six; I am guessing - and only mortal ;).  Ben's perfectly faded 4-iron to 5 feet (only to miss the putt :'()).

In conclusion and my prediction for 2015, what I don't think we will see is the really big number - Sergio's quad, etc.  I fear it will be "hitting away from trouble, two putting for par; hitting to the safe place, two putting for par.  Yeah, yeah, "par is always good at a US Open."  Whatever.  There is excitement in the drama of failures and successes and most importantly the anticipation of success and failures.  I fear there may be little drama – just a lot of pars.

Maybe I will be totally wrong.  Look, almost all of us broke 100, which was the point of this adventure.  How many of the amateurs – Tony Romo, et al – broke 100 at Torrey and wherever else they played? Bethpage?  I recall only one person did it and it was a 99.  Garland didn’t, but he is a 22 handicap or something close.  He couldn’t carry it onto two fairways, but still managed a 104.  

We all scored respectably because generally you have a shot to not only get back to the fairway, but advance it a good distance down the fairway at CB when you make a mistake.  At CB, making a mistake should only be a bogey, and no worse, especially for a pro.  No pot bunkers forcing you to hit sideways like in UK, no water, and no tight fairways with thick, long rough.  Wide fairways so these guys can work the ball according to their comfortable, favored shot, with no worries that they will be in 5 inch unplayable rough.  You can draw a bad lie at CB, but only if you miss a 40 yard wide fairway, not every time you miss a 25 yard wide fairway.  In other words, mistakes don’t get compounded at Chambers.  Never really thought of it until I wrote this.

So, if the only defense is going to be rock hard greens that you can’t hold or bounce onto, does that mean the field will either 1) lag putt from 50 feet all day, or 2) put on the greatest display of chipping and pitching from around all the greens they just barely missed?  Either way, that means few birdies; just lots of pars and no drama.  In about 720 days we will find out.

Cheers.

PS Garland, I forgot about the offer.  Your handicapped score beat mine.  I owe you a drink. :)


Sean Leary

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #113 on: June 25, 2013, 09:39:25 PM »
Michael, do you think the lack of wind makes it play less like a links course as well? I do.

Richard Choi

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #114 on: June 25, 2013, 10:01:04 PM »
Choi, don't know why you had such a tough time putting; I have experienced your short game abilities first hand...

This is something I try not to inflict on too many people...

As to the run up shots, the course is playing fairly soft as I said and it is not something you have to use right now. But that will change. #1, #2, #4, #5, #8, #10, #11, and #16 all invite run up shots. I do it all the time. As I said before, my preferred way to play #10 is to hit a hybrid and hybrid knocked down shot, and same goes for most of these holes.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 10:08:51 PM by Richard Choi »

Matthew Essig

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #115 on: June 25, 2013, 10:22:43 PM »
Michael, do you think the lack of wind makes it play less like a links course as well? I do.

While it doesn't blow on a daily basis, when it does, it is harsh. At the Washington State Am, which was held at Chambers a few days before this event, the final day was blowing in the 20-25 mph range. There is rarely an in-between. It seems to always be 0-10mph or something much worse.

To answer the question for my dad, he would say yes. One of his favorite shots to play is his, what we call, his "Bandon shot." It's just a simple knockdown shot into the wind. A major part of links golf is the creative shots that can be played, especially if the wind is a factor. When the wind doesn't blow, the creative shotmaking is slightly tarnished; the shotmaking becomes more simple. One must still play for the slopes and shape shots into bowls or onto ridges. Creative shotmaking is still extremely important without wind, but it becomes more one-dimensional, shifting away from the multiple-dimensional shotmaking that links golf exhibits.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Michael Essig

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #116 on: June 25, 2013, 10:28:46 PM »
Michael, do you think the lack of wind makes it play less like a links course as well? I do.
At the times I play CB, yes.  I hang up my clubs from Nov. thru Feb/March, so I don't face the obstacles mother nature throws at us during a NW winter.  My first rounds the last few years were early April at Bandon - wind, hail, rain, sun - that was all on one hole.  From my experience, wind is always a consideration in the UK and Ireland.  So I get that CB doesn't need to have traditional links architecture and design a course assuming windy conditions throughout the year, because it doesn't.  BUT, how do you have fairways and greens that will be brought to the super fast and super firm conditions that will exist in 2015, and have architecture that cannot accept the ground game or requires the absolute perfection aerial game?  Maybe that is what August is - no ground game, just a super precise aerial game?  Admittedly, I have never played another course that plays like CB.  As I stated in my previous post, it isn't like I or others can't score there. 

So I am not sure a comparison to a links course is fair, and I really don't know why they use that term to describe the course.  Call it unique.  Call it a hybrid.  But links?  No.  And it definitely does not and cannot be played like one in my opinion.

Matthew Essig

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #117 on: June 25, 2013, 10:43:15 PM »
Michael, do you think the lack of wind makes it play less like a links course as well? I do.
And it definitely does not and cannot be played like one in my opinion.

Well, not with the softer conditions that are typically there. At the Am, I saw more balls played as bump and runners then at several of the Open Championships, especially when they aren't completely firmed up. I lost count of how many caddy-player conversations about whether to play a  higher or lower shot. It was a common occurrence.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Matthew Essig

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #118 on: June 25, 2013, 10:46:31 PM »
Choi, don't know why you had such a tough time putting; I have experienced your short game abilities first hand...

This is something I try not to inflict on too many people...

As to the run up shots, the course is playing fairly soft as I said and it is not something you have to use right now. But that will change. #1, #2, #4, #5, #8, #10, #11, and #16 all invite run up shots. I do it all the time. As I said before, my preferred way to play #10 is to hit a hybrid and hybrid knocked down shot, and same goes for most of these holes.

At the Am, #3, #6, #13, #14, and #18 were all played with the occasional run up shot, too.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Michael Essig

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #119 on: June 25, 2013, 10:56:04 PM »
Choi, don't know why you had such a tough time putting; I have experienced your short game abilities first hand...

This is something I try not to inflict on too many people...

As to the run up shots, the course is playing fairly soft as I said and it is not something you have to use right now. But that will change. #1, #2, #4, #5, #8, #10, #11, and #16 all invite run up shots. I do it all the time. As I said before, my preferred way to play #10 is to hit a hybrid and hybrid knocked down shot, and same goes for most of these holes.
I can agree with you on #1 and #16, but I don't see how that makes sense for most of the others.  Mostly, because the greens are at a diagonal with bunkers between the green and your line of play.  #5 is just long and fortunately doesn't require a carry over a bunker - that would be unfair due to its length.

A typical links run up is straight with no obstacles between most pin positions on the green and your line of play.  At CB, there is almost always a bunker in the line of play between the landing area of your drive and most or all of the pin positions.

Garland Bayley

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2013, 12:01:02 AM »
 Did any of us think about hitting a low running shot the entire day?  


I bounced in short swing 7 irons on 2, 13, and 16.
Probably would have on 5 if not in the fairway bunker with the lip to clear.

Knowing about the backstops is probably a deterrent to some low running choices.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ben Sims

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2013, 12:10:07 AM »
Michael,

There are no bunkers in play on the run up to 2, 4, 5, 8, 14, 16.  I can see where you think CB isn't a links course.  Based on the definition used by George Peper, you're correct.  But in all seriousness, do you really think the only way to play Chambers is aerially?  I think you're painting with a broad brush.  

I read this thread and had a few minutes to kill about 30 minutes ago while my wife watched one of her shows.  My dog and I walked out onto #1 fairway with a 7 iron.  I hit 6 balls that all landed 40 yards short of the green from 120 yds out.  They all went onto the green in some fashion with two carrying into the back right bunker.  Even as soft as I've seen it, the ball releases greatly at Chambers.

I know some want to compare all fescue courses in the US to Portmornock, Dornoch or some such other GB&I course.  That's very difficult to do.  I think it's an unrealistic expectation.  Also, when have the pros EVER played the shot you're describing in the Open Championship in the modern era?  Or worse, a US Open?

I for one think the combination of approaching aerially on some and running up on others is what will make CB a great venue.  There are NO dictated shots out there.  Just dictated results based on marginal shot-making.  Errors are compounded by severe green slopes and long recoveries.  I think it is better than you and many others are giving credit.  

Richard Choi

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #122 on: June 26, 2013, 12:57:53 AM »
Michael I think you really need to play this course a few more times. #5 most definitely invites a run up play. If the pin is tucked behind the bunker and you are 180+ yards away, there is no way you can fly that and get it close. You have to the front mounding on both side of the green with a low running shot to have a chance to get it close to the pin.

This kind of scenario is common at Chambers.

Garland Bayley

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #123 on: June 26, 2013, 01:17:59 PM »
...
As I said that day over lunch, Matthew (my son) who was a marshal at the US Am said the balls were rolling out approximately 50 yards at the Am; on Sunday our balls rolled out 5 yards and mine went sideways and backwards on #13 - just what one needs on a 530 yard par 4 - despite hitting the fairway.
...

Your drive on 13 was simply poorly placed on the outside of the dogleg. It wouldn't have traveled very far under any conditions. Had that drive been up the right side, you probably would have been going for the green in two. Sean Leary criticizes the course for having too many sideboards and backboards. You hit one. I wonder if Sean also holds that one in low regard.

As far as whether the fairways were running out is concerned, I think perhaps some adjustments to conditions might have helpful. What I noticed was that John and I often had drives as far as Michael and Ben, but it was John and I that couldn't make the carry to the fairway on 4.

John has the ability to hit a low draw that allowed him to have his drives run out as far as they did. I brought an 8.5 degree driver on a stiff metal shaft, which allowed my drives to run out as far as they did. If you are playing a ball flight that has been optimized for parkland courses in the Pacific northwest, you are not going to get as much roll in the conditions we had at Chambers Bay. The grass is still fescue. It still has soft leaves or blades, and the ball will run on it if given a chance to.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jerry Kluger

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Re: GCA Outing: Can you break a 100 on a US Open course?
« Reply #124 on: June 26, 2013, 04:13:35 PM »
Have they built a clubhouse yet - will they use temporary tents.  Does Bethpage or Torrey Pines have a big enough clubhouse?