Best Ross Courses in Boston

[Brad Tufts]

Haha...I stand by my comment.  Just saying that 6700 or whatever at par 72 is much shorter than 6700 at par 70 (equivalent of 7100ish at par 72).

Obviously the concept of par is an interesting topic, but #7 and #10 are both 465..very short par 5s, but really tough par fours.

5 is a tough mid-length hole...its too bad that green speeds have basically made that green obsolete.  It was built to be on the edge of playability, and that has been challenged the last couple years.  Were they rebuilding that one for the US Am?

11 is a tough hole...3w for me, but there is room for recovery as long as you miss on the correct side..that's why it's good!

13 tee shot is not easy, but probably with less than driver at least.  14 is a solid par three, but #15 tee shot isn't too bad.  I thought i would hate what they have done with the hill on #15 for the Am, but it makes it a better hole, and I guess it used to be that way.

I just see lots of birdie holes out there.  #2, 3, 4, 6, 7(as a 5), 10(as a 5), 12, 15, 16.  The others are certainly not easy, but I think Winchester, Concord, Weston, Plymouth are harder...Salem probably equal....Kernwood, Essex, Brae Burn easier.  That's just me though...and all of them have a few tough holes.

[Dan_Callahan]

Concord, perhaps more than any other course I've played, requires at least two rounds. There are so many crazy features that lie hidden. You think you hit a good tee shot on 2 and then find yourself buried in the right rough because of the severe fairway slope. You think you hit a good approach on 4 and the discover that there is a massive chasm in front of the green. And over and over. Not sure I've ever struck the ball so well and scored so poorly as my first round at Concord.

Concord, by the way, is hosting the ISL tournament this spring. Should be a significant home course advantage for Middlesex.

[Brad Tufts]

Dan,

You are right, I would call Concord one the most underrated courses in Mass...very under the radar, and very, very good.

I play a fourball-style tourney there every year and they find great pin positions in VERY difficult locations.  Some of the best players in the state attend, and the winning score for three rounds best ball is usually in the -5 to -8 range.

After the first hole, CCC has one of the most difficult stretches in the state.  The wild 2nd (440), the 450-yd 3rd with a semi-blind approach, the wildly undulating 4th (450 from the back), and the 5th with a very difficult tee shot, also about 435.  Just when you are done with those holes, you must play a 200-yd par three, and then a 400-yarder with a tough tee shot and a wild back-to-front green!

Scores can be made from 8-14, then two difficult holes at 15 and 16, then a breather, then a toughie at 18.

The best part of the resto-vation might have been reclaiming the green edges, as we sometimes see locations in the tourney that are outside the original green edges.

[Charlie Gallagher]

I have read several comments on Concord CC and they are right on. The front nine tests skill immediately as you have to decide if you are going for the green in two after a good drive on 1. 2,3,4 come right at you, all requiring long, well placed drives to get shorter clubs in your hand. 4 is known locally as the Grand Canyon for obvious reasons. Nothing easy about 5, or the long par three 6th. The front is just plain tough to score on.

The back nine offers a few easier holes, 11 and 13 come to mind, once again, provided you drive it well,  but closes with a challenging 17th and 18th.

I agree that Middlesex will have an advatage at the ISL championship. It is a home course that requires particular local knowledge to play well and feel comfortable on.

[Brad Tufts]

I think 11 at CCC is an underrated hole with a tough green sloping both back to front and left to right. 

There is some fun elasticity built into CCC now as well post-resto/reno.

I have seen #12 played from back tee to back pin close to 180, and saw one round last year in the tourney with the tee up and the pin about 5 feet beyond the swale, playing about 125.  I have also seen #13 play from the 10th tee box (adding 30 yards), and also from the 305 box on the other side of the driveway.  Cool stuff.

My favorite hole on the front is #5, and on the back is #10.  Both have funky tee shots, but great views of the green coming down the fairways.

#16 is probably one of the toughest par fours in MA...huge sloping green, very tough tee shot, slopes in the fairway to mess with you even further...just a ball-buster.

[Charlie Gallagher]

Brad,
   That's because 16 at Concord is really a par 5, playing as a par 4. It is one tough hombre, no question.
Your point about 11 is true about 13 as well, the greens are sloped and at modern speeds a tough challenge where three putts are likely. I do think each hole is slightly less exacting regarding the driver than some of the other great driving holes at Concord. 2,3,4,5 and 10 are all examples where long, shaped, and accurate are the only answers. It's an underrated place and I don't think the members care. They know what they have.

[Tom Bagley]

The back nine at Oak Hill CC (where I am  a member) is 100% Ross - built concurrent with his work at Salem - in 1925-26, opening in 1927.  Despite reports to the contrary and misinformation elsewhere, Ross completely renovated the first nine holes in 1928-29, building six new greens while leaving the Stiles routing and Stiles 5th, 7th and 8th greens intact.  The remaining Stiles greens (along with Ross' 3rd) were re-built by Geoff Cornish in 1969.  Tom Doak with Bruce Hepner and Jim Urbina re-built the 3rd and 8th in 1995.  The only remaining Stiles influence is the routing of the first-nine.

Concord CC (where I am also a member) is also very good and is 100% Ross (save one green) with nine holes from 1914, and a second nine from 1929-1930.  The later holes are very rugged an include some of the most unique Ross holes I have seen.  Bill Healy, MD is a great source of info on Concord (as he is on Eastward Ho!).

Both courses are very strong tests from the back tees.  In comparing the two, I would say that Oak Hill has more happening on its greens, while Concord presents more difficulty an interest from tee-to-green.  Concord has completed 90% of a a Ron Prichard restoration plan, while Oak Hill has completed probably 10% of its Prichard plan.

As an aside, Plymouth CC is a very underrated golf course.  The greens and surrounds are wonderful - probbably because so little has been touched.  I have seen Ian's Master Plan and it is excellent.

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Tom,

Great stuff.

What is still to go at CCC on the Plan?  Anything big?

I've only played Oak Hill once, have to see it again sometime soon.  It held up pretty well in the recent Mass Open if I'm remembering correctly.  I don't remember the course too well (played it the one time in 04 or so), but I do remember executing an enormous slice to reach a fairway on the front nine...something also useful on CCC's #5.

[Charlie Gallagher]

Tom,
     Great information. I agree with your assessment of Concord's interest primarily being in its driving and approaching, rather than its greens, though there is nothing wrong with its greens. If you can't get your drive in the right location at Concord it makes the 2nd shot invariably longer and more difficult due to the curvature of hole corridors and ground features that effect run. It is espesially true on several of the holes I previously identified, as you well know. Improper drive placement on the 4th hole, for instance, pretty much means you had better be great at a shaped hybrid or long iron that can land softly, or you're looking at 6 or worse.
   Your information on Oak Hill is a revelation to me. I have always heard Stiles and Ross. I didn't know Ross came back and used Stile's routing, essentially making it Ross Ross. Thanks for the additional outline.

[Tom Bagley]

Brad:  Regarding Prichard's plan for Concord CC, I believe there are very few things left to be done, and most of those are probably in the "not likely to happen" category.  I can't recall whether restoration of the "hill" on the 8th hole was in Ron's plan or not.  You may recall that, originally, the drive on #8 was blind over a rough-covered hill.  There may be a few bunkers and back tees that are on the plan but not yet built.  I would have to take a look at the plan to be certain.

The "duck-slice" tee shot you probably remember from Oak Hill was on the 2nd hole.  At Ron's suggestion, the club recently built a new alternate tee on #2 close to where Stiles had originally positioned it which straightens the hole and improves it.  Ross had moved the Stiles tee and created a dog-leg right to move the tee out of the line-of-fire from #1.  Oak Hill did hold up very well in the 2011 Mass Open with the greens remaining the golf course's best defense with some saying (complaining) that it was because I had a hand in the hole locations...

Charlie and Brad:  Anytime you would like to play either course let me know.  Given our recent weather, I would advise waiting a while.

[Charlie Gallagher]

Tom,
   Very nice offer. Concord was my home course in high school and Ive played it every few years thereafter. I stand on the 1st tee,  know what is coming, and steel my self for the challenges ahead. 1 might be a gentle hand shake, but from 2 to 8 there are no breathers and on the back there are only a few less than stiff holes.

Love to play either of them and make your acquaintance personally. Thank you again for your kindness.

[Tom Bagley]

BTW, I did not mean to imply or suggest in my first post about the origins of Oak Hill that Mark Steffey was the source of any "misinformation" about the club; I was referring to the published record found in the Ross Society information and elsewhere.  The Ross society information indicates that Ross remodeled nine holes.  The correct record is that Ross added nine and remodeled the nine holes originally designed by Stiles.

Interestingly, I have recently found that Ross was on site in 1917 and appears to have been the club's first choice to design the first nine holes.  I have yet to determine why the club reversed course and hired Stiles, who began work in May 1919.  The money-men behing the building of the club were well-acquainted with both Ross and Stiles; Ross through memberships that the founders had at Pinehurst, Essex and, earlier, Oakley; and Stiles as a fellow-competitor in MGA events and for his work at nearby Nashua Country Club in 1915/16 - Stiles first design.  Stiles, in fact, won low gross at a one-day MGA event at Alpine Golf Club in Fitchburg (NLE), the predecessor to Oak Hill.  Alpine was incorporated in 1897 and was a charter member of the MGA.

There must have been some dissatisfaction with the Stiles work at Oak Hill because as early as 1923 there are reports that the club had engaged Ross to make suggestions to improve the original nine while adding nine holes.  In addition to Ross' visits to the club, Walter Hatch was very much involved in the planning and construction of the new holes.

Similar to Concord, which originated as the Concord Golf Club in 1895, but incorporated as a new entity - Concord Country Club - with its move to a new site in 1914, the Alpine members decided to establish a new entity - Oak Hill Country Club - with their move to a new site in 1921.

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Tom,

Thanks again for the generous offer...might have to do that sometime soon!

My in-laws are actually CCC members as well, the Woodwards, but they do not play too much golf.  I actually started playing in the Dawson because the tourney chairman's sister was a good friend of my wife in HS!

Speaking of the original CCC site, I have seen the original routing (both online, and in the front room of the clubhouse nearest the 9th green)...I think it was located somewhat near the Old North Bridge, as I think the road shown on the Plan is still in the same configuration today.

Sounds like OH had some similar history to Tedesco where I belong.  We had a member constructed course in place where our front nine sits by 1906, and the original back nine was built in 1912.  There is currently no evidence of who did this, but it is widely speculated to be Ross, as it was too early for Stiles.  The club then hired Stiles to modernize the whole thing in the mid-20s, and then Stiles even built a 3rd nine for us to open just when the market crashed.  5 years later the third nine was abandoned and they hired Ross in the late 30s to give advice...I have seen the whole list of recommendations, only one of which they really implemented, the move of the 12th green from a low spot to a shelf on a hillside.  Despite the fact that this was the only Ross change they used, he listed Tedesco in his sales booklet from then on!

Fun Stuff.

[Travis Dewire]

Haha...I stand by my comment.  Just saying that 6700 or whatever at par 72 is much shorter than 6700 at par 70 (equivalent of 7100ish at par 72).

Obviously the concept of par is an interesting topic, but #7 and #10 are both 465..very short par 5s, but really tough par fours.

5 is a tough mid-length hole...its too bad that green speeds have basically made that green obsolete.  It was built to be on the edge of playability, and that has been challenged the last couple years.  Were they rebuilding that one for the US Am?

11 is a tough hole...3w for me, but there is room for recovery as long as you miss on the correct side..that's why it's good!

13 tee shot is not easy, but probably with less than driver at least.  14 is a solid par three, but #15 tee shot isn't too bad.  I thought i would hate what they have done with the hill on #15 for the Am, but it makes it a better hole, and I guess it used to be that way.

I just see lots of birdie holes out there.  #2, 3, 4, 6, 7(as a 5), 10(as a 5), 12, 15, 16.  The others are certainly not easy, but I think Winchester, Concord, Weston, Plymouth are harder...Salem probably equal....Kernwood, Essex, Brae Burn easier.  That's just me though...and all of them have a few tough holes.

How would it play any harder? The course is still exactly the same. All that has been changed is the fictitious number after the hole name. Agreed that with modern scoring, your relation to par would probably be different. However your score remains the same. With rough lengths, green speeds, and hole locations, and a few narrow driving corridors, I don't think scores will be unexpectedly low.


Out of that list Plymouth is the only golf course you have to think.
I find concord to be dull and boring. Now with the added length you have to really leave your brain at home and grab the weights.
Weston? Harder than Chuck? Please.
Worcester is the hardest course I have ever played and I have been to your whole list since I was 12, many times.
I do agree BBCC is slightly (only slightly) easier, you have to think HARD. Woodland is DEF easier
Charles is much brawnier but not many finer tests in the State.
Where would you put DCPC?

Weston? Sorry but I am going to have to put that pretty far down on the list in terms of a quality golf course. Yeah it certainly has its holes but its boring and uneventful, not to mention SO EASY LOL! . The greatness of hole 8 is intersected by Meadowbrook Road. Come on now.

The thing I really need to put out there is this;
Brad, you are not the average golfer (If there is one). A course you might find easy/difficult, is going to change DRASTICALLY, for a 10, 15, or 20 handicap. Simply put.

When comparing difficult of golf courses, you can't base that of your skill level, cause you are in a very small, small percentile of the golf community.

What do you think about this situation:

18 handicap golfer, playing member tees.
One round at CCC
One round at Weston

How many forced carries are there at CCC, and how many at Weston? How many push up greens at Weston? 2? Which course allows for more running approaches into greens? Certainly Weston. Which green sites deliver the most punishment for misplayed shots? I would say CCC here.

While to you both are equally challenging, different player ability may have different sentiments.

[Tom Bagley]

Brad:  Regarding the original Concord Golf Club, Bill Healy may chime in at some point as he has done a lot of research on it.  The first golf was played along the Concord River on pasture land near Keyes Road and Lowell Road.  The original Concord Golf Club was actually to the west of Nashawtuc Hill between the Sudbury and Assabet Rivers before they join to form the Concord River.

[Bill Healy]

It is great to read the comments on Concord CC.  I believe that Concord is one of the most under-rated golf courses in the Commonwealth.  It is a classic Ross design which has been restored brilliantly by Ron Prichard, Rob Schofield, Greg Ferguson, and John Thompson.  The club has embraced the opportunity to restore firm fast playing conditions, improve the turf, and re-establish playing corridors designed by DR.  The removal of trees around the green at Four (including the large front right conifer) will catch everyon's attention this spring. The original plateau green on top of the knoll looks terrific, and I expect the approach to the green will be more difficult.
Concord's appeal may take a few rounds to appreciate.  Ross liked to design holes and approach shots with uphill challenges, and ten of eighteen holes at CCC move uphill. The par threes are played in three directions, one is steep downhill, one is steep uphill over water, and you cannot score well at CCC without survival on the one shotters.  However, the strength of the course in terms of scoring are the long par fours.
Ross used the land well at Concord, and the routing may the finest feature of the course.
Regarding other comments on Concord..............there are no plans to restore the Hill on Eight, but I have a standing offer to donate a grand to put it back!!.....the current golf course is the third site of the Concord Golf Club, and 2013 is actually the one hundredth anniversary of Concord Country Club.........concord could use more length to test elite golfers, but 6700 yards is pretty long for a par 70 track.......
Thanks for thinking about the golf course at Concord.  Please tell your friends.
Bill Healy

[Brad Tufts]

Travis,

Yeah, I mean in relation to par the par 72 course is easier at the River.  Among the others, CCC is probably the hardest, but I have never done too well at Winchester either.  Weston I have played three times (I think) and found it to be tricky.  I realize that I'm not the average player, but I do feel like low handicappers can more quickly discern relative difficulty than a 20-capper that might fire anything from 90-110 on a given day.  I would put DCPC on the easier side of things...many wedge approaches to be had there...but that is after only one play several years ago.  Still haven't played Worcester.

But I digress.  I do not find CCC dull and boring....really none of these are, which is why they are all worth visiting!  I do think that CCC's margin for error is pretty low...to me you have to be a solid player for it to really come alive.

[Pete Blaisdell]

   I have been blessed to have played every Ross course listed on this thread. There really is not a bad course listed.

   My personal favorites--

      Salem
      Winchester
      Essex
      Worcester
      Brae Burn

   If I ever won the lottery, I would spend whatever it took to bring George Wright up to snuff. I love the layout and the shot values.

[Rich Goodale]

Travis,

Yeah, I mean in relation to par the par 72 course is easier at the River.  Among the others, CCC is probably the hardest, but I have never done too well at Winchester either.  Weston I have played three times (I think) and found it to be tricky.  I realize that I'm not the average player, but I do feel like low handicappers can more quickly discern relative difficulty than a 20-capper that might fire anything from 90-110 on a given day.  I would put DCPC on the easier side of things...many wedge approaches to be had there...but that is after only one play several years ago.  Still haven't played Worcester.

But I digress.  I do not find CCC dull and boring....really none of these are, which is why they are all worth visiting!  I do think that CCC's margin for error is pretty low...to me you have to be a solid player for it to really come alive.

Brad

I respect your opinions on Weston, but I don't think it deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Winchester or Charles River.  Yes, it does have a lot of tricky/quirky holes that are cool to play (e.g. 5, 6, some solid ones (e.g. 1, 4, 9) and a very good finish (13-18), but it is let down by the boring uphill slog which is 2 and the useless modern Cornish additions of 11 and 12.  Those latter two holes replaced two great ones--the original 7th which was a drop shot par-3 from the right of the 6th tee (the steps leading up to the abandoned tee are still there....) to a green near the back 7th tee, and; the original 12th which was where the driving range now is.  There is also a great NLE bunker behind the current 8th which must have been a ball buster in hte days when players were hitting long irons to that green.

I'm not old enough to have played those old holes, but I have played the course 15-20 times (my sister is a long time member there) and always feel let down by what is vs. what used to be, as well as the fact that it seems to be maintained to play too slow and soft rather than fast and firm.

Rich

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Rich (Rihc),

I don't think its in the same class either, it was mentoned on Tyler's original post, so that's why it's included in the discussion.

When I get a few mins, I can post my Mass rankings amongst those I have played...I have probably seen about 40% of our 375ish golf courses...my big omissions would be Sankaty/Nantucket/Oyster Harbors/Hyannisport/Worcester/New Bedford/Woods Hole/Duxbury/The Ranch/Framingham/Berkshire Hills/Belmont...maybe a couple others.

[Mark Luckhardt]

No Oakley CC love at all.
I know it is short, but with a nice group of greens.
This was Ross's first course in Boston wasn't it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

How was Belmont left off the list ?

[Brad Tufts]

Belmont definitely flies well beneath the radar in Boston golf...I have heard its comparable to some of the others.

Oakley is fun for the history, and I was dumbfounded that the routing is essentially the same since 1900 when Ross arrived and re-plotted what was already there.  It's not a bad afternoon, but it's really cramped (interior OB on one hole), especially with the equipment these days.  I can't say that they have a "great set" of greens other than a few good ones.  My fave holes would be 3, 4, 7, 9, and 12.  Also neat that a 5900-yd course has 3 of 5 par threes close to or over 200 yards!

[Mark Steffey]

How was Belmont left off the list ?

how much of what they have is still original Ross?   Route 2 construction cut into a chunk of that property.

[Patrick_Mucci]

How was Belmont left off the list ?

how much of what they have is still original Ross?

A good deal

Route 2 construction cut into a chunk of that property.

I think five holes were affected