Thoughts on Number 18 Streamsong Red.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Not that in any way I am attempting to criticise messrs Crenshaw and Coore, but when leaving 18 green I could not help but feel what a weak finish to a good golf course.
 Sort of along the topic of Mr Cowley's current thread on neutralising par, I was extreamly dissapointed in how number 18 played.
It appears to be too short as a par 5, lacks any real strategy as such but is a darn good long par four, but if that was the case the left side of the sand area should be shaved down to expose more of the green.
Irrespective of it being a 4 or 5 par, what a shame that this wonderful green comples is not really visible from the fairway.
There is a beautiful bumker short left, with wonderful looking cut lines atht the golfer does not see until he arives at the putting surface, same goes for that exquisite little run off area between that same trap and the back left trap.
If the left waste area was lowered you would be able to see all of this wonderful design in its full splendour.

I know somebody is going to say "if you do play it as a three shotter and play your second shot out to the right hand side of the fairway, you can see the full green complex'.
I agree but the hole doesnt really play long enough to justify that approach.
And I did play it from the green tees, so unless it played into a stiff breeze I dont really see the lay up coming into play.
As such I would either lengthen the hole to make it more appropriate to lay up to the right, or lessen the height iof the left sand area to expose more of the green visually to the golfer....any opinions?

[Mark Saltzman]

Do you mean lay-up to the left side of the fairway?

It may just be one of those holes where the strategies come alive for a worse than low-handicap golfer (or at least a non-bomber).

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

No the lay up would be /is to the right side, from where you can see the entire green.
The left side plays as a blind second shot, that is what I dont like about the hole, I think it is a shame to hide what is a beautiful green complex.

[Mark Saltzman]

Michael, I think I am misunderstanding you.

When you say lay-up, do you mean laying up on the tee shot, which would be on the right side of the split-fairway? Or do you mean laying up on the second shot to the right, which would be on the low-side of the green complex?  Surely a third shot from the left is easier than from the right, no?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

It is not really the ease of the shot that concerns me Mark, more the visual or lack of it from playing down the left side.
I am talking about a second shot lay up. after all it is supposed to be a par five.
there in lies aprt of the problem, you are even considering laying up on the tee shot, never a good thought on a par five for me!

The only view of this green complex in it's full glory is from the right side, which to me is a waste.
Both times I played the hole, I had an iron from the middle ofthe fairway to a semi blind green.
When I got up to the green I could see all the green complex in its glory, that left side is beautiful but hidden from the fairway, just a waste to me.

[Josh Tarble]

Michael,
I actually loved it for the exact reasons you said. In our group we had the following:

Drive down left side - left with a mid iron to a blind green
Drive down the middle - long iron to sem-blind green
Drive down the right - wood to a pretty open green

Seems to me exactly what you'd want in a hole.  Play for an open shot, be left with a longer approach.  The drive itself is a great strategic decision as well.  Take on the nasty centerline bunker for a shorter, albeit, blind approach or play safe for a long chance to hit the green in two.  Once we got to the green it was a fabulous green complex.  Same round we had a 3-putt par, up and down for birdie, a two-putt par and a bogey.

Coming down in match play would be a serious amount of decision making. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

It is just the esthetic that bugs me, such wonderful work in creating that left side complex and it not being visible from the fairway.

[Bryan Izatt]

On my one play, there was a helping wind and the silver tees I was playing were up.  Probably only played 400 yards on a direct line.  Hooked a drive around the bunker to near the left edge of the fairway and was left with 165 yards to the pin.  Had a 15 footer that took two to get in.  I thought it was a decent par to finish.  The caddie said no, it was a birdie.  I hadn't looked at the scorecard or guide, so didn't realize it was a par 5.  I wouldn't have guessed based on the way it played.

Michael,  not sure I get your idea about the left side.  The second shot was semi-blind but that only causes confusion or hides the beauty the first time around, and I don't have a problem with semi-blind or even blind shots.  I took a number of pictures, but apparently none of the left side.  It looked like all the interest on the green was on the right side, and it looked really interesting and challenging.  What did you see on the left side of the green?  I don't really see a bunker there and it looks like it just slopes up to the dune (which looks appropriately rugged).  The right side, of course, really grabbed my attention, apparently taking away any notice of the left.

Here's Joe's picture from the fairway.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I love blind first or second or even third shots, no problem there.
My only issue is that the left side is so darn good looking, it is a shame you dont get to see it.
From the 400 yard playing of the hole, as in this picture you can see it okay, but should that the be a par five, which gos back to my original reference to Paul Cowley's thread?

[Patrick_Mucci]

MWP,

I tend to disagree about the "weak" hole finish and am reminded of Mike Pascucci's over riding vote on # 18 at Sebonack when Doak and Nicklaus wanted the 18th to be a difficult par 4.

Pascucci felt that he wanted golfers to walk off the 18thwith good feelings and a desire to return to play again.

Is that not one of the goals for a resort course ?  ?  ?

Or, would you have your customer disappointed and defeated by a very difficult finish ?

I think #'s 18 at NGLA, Sebonack and Red provide the ability to leave with a par or birdie and a very satisfied customer.

If a golfer finishes with a good hole, he's likely to have positive thoughts about the course and his desire to return.

You're an exceptional golfer, so your standards are higher than the average RETAIL golfer

The enormous dune is visually impressive and a golfer who birdies or pars # 18 will be a satisfied customer, likely to want to return, rather than a beat up, defeated customer with negative thoughts about his last hole

[Bryan Izatt]

Pat,

I guess TD missed that point on 18 Blue.   

[Alex Miller]

MWP,

How did you feel about SS Blue's 11th?

[Bill Brightly]

Michael,

Good post but I am going to argue the opposite way. You are talking about playing a par 5 as a two-shotter... So why are you entitled to see from your driver landing area what you are SUPPOSED to wait and see from the "proper" approach to the green?

I know that you are a plus handicap and can probably bomb the ball. So I would say that it is GOOD design to make you have a partially obscured view when you go for it in two. I am a four handicap with average length. From the Silver tees I had a go for the green and hit a really good 4 iron with a slight draw. I thought it would be on, but I guess the steep upslope of the front-right fended my shot way right. But I really could not see the shot...and that is really good design, IMO.

The next day we played it from the Green tees and after a good drive, I played a safe rescue club way out to the right to the "proper" lay up spot. I was rewarded with a great view of the green, and a fairly simple wedge into an upslope (the pin was left/middle) which I got up and down for a birdie. My opponnet hit a better drive than me, but knocked his 3 wood clear over the green and had a really hard chip back down the slope, and barely made par. (And I made a bundle as we had re-pressed the press!  )

I think the hole works really well. Maybe not a classic finishing hole but it certainly is an exciting one, a really good match play hole,  with a wide range of scoring possibilities.

[Howard Riefs]

I prefer to finish with a testing hole. Instead, Red #18 is the 17 handicap hole and, in playing from the silver tees, is shorter than two of the par fours (#1, #12) on the course; and both of those holes play significantly uphill and into a the wind.

Here are a few more photos and also an illustration of the hole from the yardage guide. The “Par 4” typo threw me off the first time I played the hole.  I thought nothing of it as I was still recovering from playing the beastly #12.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bill
In some ways your post is kind of my problem with the hole.It simply plays too short, to play it as a par five three shotter and have a view of the beautiful greem complex, driver ,wedge wedge...not my ides of how a par five should play.
Again I have no problems with the strategy or you rpoint if I go for it in two, why should it not be blind...I get all that.
My ONLY issue is that it is simply too darn beautiful a green complex not to be seen by all players from anywhere in the fairway.
I am in no way critical of the hole design as a design, although I do think it is too short from all boxes, but merely stating what a shame that complex is not visible until you get to the green.
I clearly did not stress myself very well at the outset here, beacuse all I am really saying is that C&C created such a great looking final green enviroment, I wish I could have enjoyed it before I got to the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MWP,

Let's not forget about the wind and it's impact on the golfer playing # 18.

From the black tees I hit my second in the back bunker and with a back hole location hit an L-wedge to 18 inches.
My son had a 60 yard third, hit it into the back bunker and hit an L-wedge to 18 inches and said, good-good, to which I said, "no", your opponents in your high school matches are going to make you putt it, so get used to making it, which he did.

The day before we both had L-wedges into the green, but on both days the wind was not hurting.

Bryan,

I thought about the contrast between the last holes on the Blue and the Red along with the contrast in the opening holes on both courses.

In fact, this became a subject for discussion at Streamsong.

I'd rather start off benign and end difficult than start off difficult and end benign.

Remember too, that if you're playing match play, your match is usually over before you reach 18, and often over before you hit 17.

So, does a difficult 18th only have significance for medal play and you ego upon departure ?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mr Mucci.
Once again I cannot argue with any of your points, I agree wholeheartedly with all of them, as much as it scares me I often find myslef agreeing with your viewpoints, and after my first official gca outing recently, not sure that is a good thing

Just kidding Sir, as was the genral consensus at Streamsong, your prescence on this site is very much appreciated and enjoyed, at least by most.
Thats enough arse creeping for one day, hope to see you again soon.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I don't have a problem with the concept of "par", I do however have a problem with the concept of everyone being entitled to make par by the creation of innumerable tees.


Mr Mucci, I stole this from another thread comments you made which are also relevant to this thread as I stated in my original post.
My viewpoint on this hole will be different fromothers based on tee location, the green tee on #18 does not enable me to play the second shot from most playing the silver tees and as such that left side blindness is more severe.
Again it is not the blindness that I dont like, just not being able to see the beauty of the green complex.

[Bryan Izatt]

MWP,

......................................

Bryan,

I thought about the contrast between the last holes on the Blue and the Red along with the contrast in the opening holes on both courses.

In fact, this became a subject for discussion at Streamsong.

I'd rather start off benign and end difficult than start off difficult and end benign. 

Me too.  One of the reasons I played the Blue on my first trip was that the 1st on the Red looked like no fun at all.  On the subsequent trip it turned out to be challenging but not so bad (given that there was a good tailwind).

Remember too, that if you're playing match play, your match is usually over before you reach 18, and often over before you hit 17.

So, does a difficult 18th only have significance for medal play and you ego upon departure ?

Yes, re Medal play.  Sure, generally I'd rather feel good leaving rather than beat up by the last hole.

[Bryan Izatt]

Michael,

Thats enough arse creeping for one day, hope to see you again soon.

Wow, it must be dark in there.  I'd prescribe a dose of green ink for you.  You should feel more normal tomorrow.


BTW, there is something to be said for delayed gratification.  Just think how great it is to finally crest the hill where you get a full view of the green in all its majesty.   

 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Oh you wussies, come on nothing like making or trying to make par on a ball beater of a last hole, makes dinner taste so much better.
But I agree I get you rpoint about the resort golfer give him a par and get him back, good philosophy.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Bryan,
Cant argue with that point either, in fact why did I start this damn thread again!

[Bill Brightly]

Bill
In some ways your post is kind of my problem with the hole.It simply plays too short, to play it as a par five three shotter and have a view of the beautiful greem complex, driver ,wedge wedge...not my ides of how a par five should play.
Again I have no problems with the strategy or you rpoint if I go for it in two, why should it not be blind...I get all that.
My ONLY issue is that it is simply too darn beautiful a green complex not to be seen by all players from anywhere in the fairway.
I am in no way critical of the hole design as a design, although I do think it is too short from all boxes, but merely stating what a shame that complex is not visible until you get to the green.
I clearly did not stress myself very well at the outset here, beacuse all I am really saying is that C&C created such a great looking final green enviroment, I wish I could have enjoyed it before I got to the green.

Wait, how long are you? Driver-wedge-wedge? I said I hit driver, 3 rescue-wedge... (I agree that it is a better hole from the Green tees, ok from the Black, and far too short from the Silver. The problem I see is that the rest of the back nine is very long, so many will be playing Silver tees on the back...)

Forget about the beauty of the green complex for a minute. Think about its playing characteristics. The steep drop-off on the right will repel most running shots at the middle/right half of the green, right? Which means to go for it in two, you probably need to play a fade and come in from the left, but risk hanging it out to the left. And of course you have to hit these shots from a semi-blind position. I think that makes it a really good design.

Seriously, what is the rush for a cool green complex to be revealed? Why is a delayed view a bad thing?

[Richard Choi]

Michael is just bitter because I beat him with a net eagle on this hole after hitting the bunkers twice...

[Howard Riefs]

Forget about the beauty of the green complex for a minute. Think about its playing characteristics. The steep drop-off on the right will repel most running shots at the middle/right half of the green, right? Which means to go for it in two, you probably need to play a fade and come in from the left, but risk hanging it out to the left. And of course you have to hit these shots from a semi-blind position. I think that makes it a really good design.

MWP,

Did we even have this front right pin position during our 3 rounds?  I recall left center and back middle. 

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