[Tony_Muldoon]

Who cares what you call those they are both great and are on a sandy site so they drian well.

The question in the original post was

"So which of the modern builds may be considered to be “world-class” or "great" in 100 years’ time?"

A slim list.  I liked Cardigan, Bearwood Lakes and Stockley Park the best of the new ones I've played, but they all fail the greatness test.

So I think that sadly the answer is likely none?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ganton is a LINKS ! A links a links a links. People have such an inelastic sense of the present.

Anyway, is Royal Worlington on a heath? I know there are firs on the property, normally a giveaway, but the pics don't seem to show heather.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ganton is a LINKS ! A links a links a links. People have such an inelastic sense of the present.

Anyway, is Royal Worlington on a heath? I know there are firs on the property, normally a giveaway, but the pics don't seem to show heather.

As of 6 days ago there was no heather and few (if any) birch and it was f&f.   

But time is so elastic I hesitate to give a definitive answer.

[Duncan Cheslett]

There is a very specific definition of what is heathland. This is the best description I can find;

http://www.countrysideinfo.co.uk/whatis.htm

Heaths are wide open landscapes dominated by plants such as Heathers, Gorse and heathland grasses and punctuated by scattered trees such as Silver Birch. They are historic landscapes and are essentially a man-made habitat.

Heathlands occur on barren infertile land. The soils are usually sandy (and therefore free-draining), acidic and very low in plant nutrients. Because the soils are free-draining, they do not hold water for long and heaths are therefore often subject to summer droughts.

Tree seedlings such as Pine and Silver Birch readily establish on heathland. If they are not controlled in some way (e.g. by cutting, grazing or fire) they will grow up until they shade out the underlying heath vegetation. In the past, traditional practices such as cutting trees for firewood and grazing domestic animals on the heath, kept tree growth under control and maintained the open landscape. With the loss of these traditional activities in modern life, many heathlands are now reverting to woodland.

This explains why trees have become so much more of a feature on heatland golf courses.

[Thomas Dai]

As Tony has so precisely reminded us, the question in the original post was -

"So which of the modern builds may be considered to be “world-class” or "great" in 100 years’ time?"

If I remove any genuine linksie or heathy courses from the list displayed above this is how it now looks.

I have assumed a date of roughly-about 1990 for 'modern builds' but this could be moved forward or backwards if considered appropriate.

Potential GB&I“world-class” or "great" in 100 years’ time

Castle Stuart - a new label, 'faux links'
Kingsbarns - faux links
Queenwood - new label, 'faux heathland'
Close House Colt - modern parkland
Woburn Dukes - faux heathland
Woburn Marquess - faux heathland
The Grove - modern parkland
The Oxfordshire - modern parkland
2010/Celtic Manor - modern Taffyland
K-Club (Palmer) - modern parkland
Carlton House (Monty) - modern parkland
St Mellion (upgraded) - modern parkland
The Roxburghe - modern parkland
Loch Lomond - modern parkland
Chart Hills - modern parkland
Bowood - modern parkland
Bearwood Lakes - modern parkland
The Stranahan at Players Club - modern parkland
Stockley Park - modern parkland
Wisley - modern parkland
Crail Craighead - 'faux' links

Any of the above you reckon should be removed or any others you'd like to see added? How about -

Remedy Oak, Dorset - but is it a heathland?
Gleneagles (Ryder Cup course whatever it's title is)
Machynys Peninsula, Wales - faux links
Skibo Castle - has anyone played it?
St Andrews Castle, faux links
Dundonald, Ayrshire, is it faux links?
Spey Valley - is it heathland?
Renaissance Club - is it heathland?
Archerfield Fidra - is it heathland?
Archerfield Dirleton - is it faux links?
Adare Manor - modern parkland
Loch Erne - modern parkland
Mount Juliet - modern parkland
Druids Glen - modern parkland
Old Head - kinda unique

I am indebted to the Top100golfcourses for helping with this second listing.

BTW, apologies to Ally, I seem to have hijacked his initial thread. Duncan, thanks for the heathland definition.

All the best

[Adam Lawrence]

The first two courses at Woburn (Dukes and Duchess) date from the middle 70s. I don't mind calling them modern, but not if your cutoff is 1990.

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for this Adam and Brian. These two are scratched out.

I'll remove/add courses as posters wish.

I'll be curious to see which ones we end up with - might be some newer courses worth visiting.

Interesting how so few of them seem to be traditional GB&I golf 'Clubs', more like a golf facilities or an add-ons to a hotel, but not a 'Golf Club' as we traditionally know them.

All the best.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Well, I guess I asked two questions... The first was the best courses from any age that are non-links or heath...

But I commented that 100 year old courses can seem to take on a natural evolution of their own through drainage, water courses, maintenance practices and topdressing that can turn a course initially on crap soil in to a firm and fast beauty... Even if we don't have anything in GB&I to compare to an Augusta or Merion.

So I wondered about the moderns - particularly parklands - that might evolve in to better courses in the future?... I'd immediately strike off the three Archerfields, Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart from that list because of seaside settings, generally good soil and a links style... I'd leave Queenwood on because although it's aiming at heathland through its planting of heather, gorse and fescues, it was built on farmland like the two courses at Foxhills next door...

My favourite modern in Ireland is probably Adare (Trent Jones) because I think the routing works perfectly beautifully by placing tees right next to previous greens - It is a surprisingly easy walk for a monster-modern. I also like Nicklaus's new course at Killeen Castle  .

[Mark Chaplin]

Knole Park and Tandridge are good solid Kent member courses on interesting land.

Chart Hiils has some interesting design features and several high quality holes.

[Thomas Dai]

Following comments and Ally's two question reminder, I’ve now summarised the courses mentioned into these 2 listings, namely –

best GB&I courses from any age that are non-links or heathland

&

best GB&I built since circa 1990 with potential to be “world-class” or "great" in 100 years’ time (again, non-links, non-heath)

A course only appears on 1 of the listings.

Recommended deletions/additions please – suggest we aim for 2 shortlists of say 5 courses each, being places worth targeting for visits

1) Best GB&I courses from any age that are non-links or heathland

West Sussex/Pulborough - downland - heathland
Yelverton - moorland
Huntercombe - downland
Belvoir Park - traditional parkland
Malone - traditional parkland
Carlow - quasi-heathland
Cavendish – moorland/parkland
Blackwell - traditional parkland (with a bit of heathland)
South Staffs - traditional inland
Olton - traditional parkland
Ross-on-Wye - parkland
Rolls of Monmouth - parkland
Stoke Poges - traditional parkland
Fulford (York) - traditional parkland (with a bit of heathland)
Southerndown - downland
Goodwood - downland
Little Aston - traditional parkland (with a bit of heathland)
Gleneagles King's - moorland
Prestbury - traditional parkland
Edgbaston - traditional parkland
Harborne - traditional parkland
Oxford - traditional parkland
Knole Park - traditional parkland
Tandridge - traditional parkland (with a tiny bit of heathland)
Reddish Vale - traditional parkland
Kington - moorland?
Cleeve Cloud - downland?

2) Best GB&I built since circa 1990 with potential to be “world-class” or "great" in 100 years’ time (again, non-links, non-heath)

Queenwood - new label, 'faux heathland'
Close House Colt - modern parkland
Woburn Marquess - faux heathland
The Grove - modern parkland
The Oxfordshire - modern parkland
2010/Celtic Manor - modern Taffyland
Carlton House (Monty) - modern parkland
St Mellion (upgraded) - modern parkland
The Roxburghe - modern parkland
Loch Lomond - modern parkland
Chart Hills - modern parkland
Bowood - modern parkland
Bearwood Lakes - modern parkland
The Stranahan at Players Club - modern parkland
Stockley Park - modern parkland
Remedy Oak, Dorset - but is it a heathland?
Minchinhampton – two modern downlands
Gleneagles (Ryder Cup course whatever it's title is)
Machynys Peninsula, Wales - faux links
Skibo Castle - has anyone played it?
Heythrop Park - modern parkland
St Andrews Castle, faux links
Dundonald, Ayrshire, is it faux links?
Spey Valley - is it heathland?
Adare Manor - modern parkland
Loch Erne - modern parkland
Mount Juliet - modern parkland
Druids Glen - modern parkland
Old Head - kinda unique
Killeen Castle (Nicklaus) – modern parkland

Recommended deletions/additions please – suggest we aim for 2 shortlists of say 5 courses each, being places worth targeting for visits.

All the best

[Adam Lawrence]

Pulborough is not downland. The soil is sandy, not chalk. I can't see that you'd consider the course anything but heath.

[Mark Pearce]

Kington deserves to be in the discussion for the first list.  I suspect after some of the discussion over the weekend that Cleeve Cloud may also need to be added, though I haven't played it myself.

[Duncan Cheslett]

1) Best GB&I courses from any age that are non-links or heathland

West Sussex/Pulborough - downland
Yelverton - moorland
Huntercombe - downland
Belvoir Park - traditional parkland
Malone - traditional parkland
Carlow - quasi-heathland
Cavendish – moorland/parkland
Blackwell - traditional parkland (with a bit of heathland)
South Staffs - traditional inland
Olton - traditional parkland
Ross-on-Wye - parkland
Rolls of Monmouth - parkland
Stoke Poges - traditional parkland
Fulford (York) - traditional parkland (with a bit of heathland)
Southerndown - downland
Goodwood - downland
Little Aston - traditional parkland (with a bit of heathland)
Gleneagles King's - moorland
Prestbury - traditional parkland
Edgbaston - traditional parkland
Harborne - traditional parkland
Oxford - traditional parkland
Knole Park - traditional parkland
Tandridge - traditional parkland (with a bit of heathland)

I know I'm a little biased but Reddish Vale most certainly belongs among this list. I guess you'd have to class it as traditional parkland.

www.rvgc.co.uk

[Mark Chaplin]

I think Rich sums it up well that there are a good number of very good or even great member courses inland that are fun to play and very worthy of a day out. However very few are worth a major detour or special trip for a visitor.

I've sent a few visitors to Knole Park over the years and they've enjoyed it but you never hear the likes of Stoke Park or Goodwood mentioned in a grand tour of the south east.

[Thomas Dai]

Requested amendments made.

Which are the few that are worth a major detour or a special trip for a visitor?

All the best.

[James Boon]

I'm not a geological expert, but from my experience of golf courses and there surrounding landscape I'd say there are 2 types of moorland course being discussed above:
1. Moorland setting but lots of heather, which is actually I believe Upland Heath http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/conservation/biodiversity/englands/habitatofthemonth/uplandheath.aspx
2. Upland, open courses with little or no heather. Still easily termed moorland due to their exposed location, but not necessarily heather or good soil beneath your feet.

So considering upland heath is sandy soil with heather, shouldn't it be classed as heathland even if its not true lowland heath like that found in surrey http://www.forestry.gov.uk/forestry/Lowlandheath (note to anyone reading these articles, when they say poor soil I guess they are talking from an agricultural sense and not what makes for good golf?)

I think most of those mentioned fall into the upland heath category? Certainly Gleneagles, Spey Valley and the other inland Scottish heathlandesque courses would be?

Cheers,

James

[James Boon]

The list of courses for consideration is a solid list and I'm sure there are several others hiding away that could be up for consideration? However my choice for today  would be:
a, Best Classic Course Not Links or Heath: Huntercombe (or perhaps Little Aston up for consideration?)
b, Best Classic Course that is on soil not good for golf: Cavendish
c, Best Modern Course that is on soil not good for golf: The Grove or Close House (though I've played very few from the list)
Note: no Modern category for courses not links or heath as the chances of building a modern course on moorland or downland are pretty slim with most of them being national parks, AONB, SSSI etc

Cheers,

James

[Ally Mcintosh]

James,

I don't think the "upland" versus "lowland" categories are the important ones here although I agree the uplands are usually termed moorland.

You get "wet" heath and "dry" heath and these are the important ones for golf. The former usually has a high water table and often a clay sub-base. The latter is sandy and free draining.

Most of the Surrey courses are on dry heath. Whereas courses such as Moortown were on primarily wet heath (those back holes 11-14 took a lot of draining at construction). From what Adam said, it sounds like Walton Heath was also wet. These are all lowland courses however.

I think we have to consider all types of heath off-limits for this discussion, especially the classics... And I don't believe there are any modern courses built on true heath? Perhaps that's another question.

[James Boon]

Indeed Ally,

My point is that if all forms of heathland re out of the discussion, that means most of the moorland courses mentioned will be as well.

Cheers,

James

[Tony_Muldoon]

EDit SEE FOLLOWING POSTS

A useless fact that is sort of tangentilly relevant here, as it shows how difficult it is to classify all these courses.


Dornoch with it's gorse and (some) heather is not technically  links.


It is mostly that very rare land classified as Coastal Heath.


No need to thank me.

[Ally Mcintosh]

A useless fact that is sort of tangentilly relevant here, as it shows how difficult it is to classify all these courses.


Dornoch with it's gorse and (some) heather is not technically  links.


It is mostly that very rare land classified as Coastal Heath.


No need to thank me.

Rather than thanking you Tony, I'll contradict you.

I believe that Dornoch is just on a more mature dune system covered in dune heath... All dunes will eventually travel from lyme grasses to marram to fescues to heath to woodland through natural seral succession.

On the other hand, coastal heath is usually more associated with headlands, not sand dunes.

Yours sincerely,
Know-it-All-y

(I think we may be splitting hairs here?)

[Robin_Hiseman]

The Wisley should definitely be on the modern list.  It's a very classy layout and a whole bunch better than most of that list.  So should St.Mellion be if we're to be thorough.  Crail Craighhead too.  That's definitely not a links.  They were just fields and not very interesting ones before construction. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

What about the true parkland moderns such as Heythrop Park? I thought it looked incredibly interesting through landscaped gardens...

[Thomas Dai]

Heythrop Park and St Mellion are both on the listing and I'm adding Wisley and Crail Craighhead too.

All the best.

[Thomas Dai]

Which courses then, from those nominated so far, are the few that are actually worth a major detour or a special trip for a visitor?

My choices from those courses nominated (not in any specific order) would be -

5 from list 1 - best GB&I courses from any age that are non-links or heathland -

West Sussex/Pulborough - why? - because you guys say it's worth playing - or is it disqualified for being heathland?
Huntercombe - seen it up close and because you guys say it's worth playing
Blackwell - played it already and want to play it again and again and again and again
Southerndown - seen it up close and because my mates and you guys say it's worth playing
Little Aston - because you guys say it's worth playing

5 from list 2 - best GB&I built since circa 1990 with potential to be “world-class” or "great" in 100 years’ time (again, non-links, non-heath) -

There is quite a bit of wishful thinking here given the high green-fee prices £$£$ and/or the exclusivity but nevertheless here's my 5 -

Queenwood - why? - to see what it's like and experience the sheer exclusivity
The Grove - because several mates say it's worth playing and that the conditioning is quite outstanding
Remedy Oak - because I've read loads of web etc reviews that all say it's terrific - or is it disqualified for being a heathland?
Skibo Castle - because I've looked closely at it and it appears to be wonderful and some locals I've met who've played it are full of praise - or is it disqualified for being either a links or a heathland?
St Andrews Castle - because of it's really, really wicked green contouring

All the best

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