[Greg Tallman]

You have decades old push up greens on highly compacted soil. There is no overwhelming support to rebuild to USGA or other sand based specs. What is your prescription for maintaining them as push ups knowing the desired green speeds are around 12 and that isn't changing anytime soon.

1. Soil amendment program - frequent aerification with frequent light watering

2. Minimal aerification  and infrequent deep watering

What happens if you opt for #1 then, after a few years, go for #2?

[SL_Solow]

Not a super but here is what we did and it worked. First, installed XGD drainage.  Second, aggressive top dressing and "drill and fill" program.  Third gas (methyl bromide) and regrass A!/A4 blend.  shut down mid August until following Memorial day but greens turned out better than expected.  Maintained existing contours and far less expensive than USGA rebuild.

[Greg Tallman]

Not a super but here is what we did and it worked. First, installed XGD drainage.  Second, aggressive top dressing and "drill and fill" program.  Third gas (methyl bromide) and regrass A!/A4 blend.  shut down mid August until following Memorial day but greens turned out better than expected.  Maintained existing contours and far less expensive than USGA rebuild.

Sorry, should have said working with existiing turf was required

[John McCarthy]

Can I ask some questions about the XGC system? 

Is this gravity based or can you put the thing under a vacuum to pull water out like the Sub-Air system? 

Are most new greens (non_USGA) being built with systems like this? 

Just idle curiosity.

[SL_Solow]

XGD is gravity based designed for "push up" bath tub type greens.  No need in USGA as they are designed to drain without the nedd for something like XGD.  Most of the time sub air or similar systems are for special circumstances and are very expensive.

[Randy Thompson]

How about a combination of number one and two, frequent aerifying and deep and infrequent watering, this would be best for bent or bermuda surfaces. If you have a high percentage of Poa mixed with bent than yes you will need to go with frequent aerifying and frequent light watering since the poa is so shallow rooted. If you donīt aerify frequently it will be difficult to water deep but the wetting agents are improving and now a days it is possible but still difficult.

[Shaun Feidt]

Not a super but here is what we did and it worked. First, installed XGD drainage.  Second, aggressive top dressing and "drill and fill" program.  Third gas (methyl bromide) and regrass A!/A4 blend.  shut down mid August until following Memorial day but greens turned out better than expected.  Maintained existing contours and far less expensive than USGA rebuild.

That sounds like a great alternative to complete reconstruction.  The regrassing probably still took some time I imagine, but overall, less time than a reconstruction.  How long were the greens closed for if you do not mind me asking?  All of those methods are also pretty pricey.  Did your club do a cost comparison between the two alternatives or was the decision more based on time the course would be closed? 

We currently are still pushing for a reconstruction, but we have installed the XGD stystem into our 90 year old push ups.  It definately helps as far as drainage issues, but our greens are almost 100% poa, which is very costly to maintain. 

[Greg Tallman]

How about a combination of number one and two, frequent aerifying and deep and infrequent watering, this would be best for bent or bermuda surfaces. If you have a high percentage of Poa mixed with bent than yes you will need to go with frequent aerifying and frequent light watering since the poa is so shallow rooted. If you donīt aerify frequently it will be difficult to water deep but the wetting agents are improving and now a days it is possible but still difficult.

Randy,

Assuming the aerification is getting 6 to MAYBE 8 inches what good is the infrequent deep watering into what amounts to a bathtub?

[Pete Lavallee]

Greg,

I'm glad you started this thread; I was about to do the same thing after your comment about TN treating their pushups like USGA greens and therefore loosing them. I have a vested interest in the answer as the City of San Diego is bound and determined to blow up the pushup greens at Torrey Pines North, simply because they can't maintain them the same way they maintain the USGA greens on the South. I talked to City Golf Manager Mark Marney for over a half hour and there was no way I was going to be able to convince him this was the wrong road to go down! I did mention XDG but to no avail. The greens on the North course are primarily Poa.

[Steve Okula]

Impossible to answer without knowing what the climate is and what the existing grasses are, except to say if the expectations are for 12 foot speeds on a regular basis, then you will ultimately finish with a dirt surface regardless of program. .

[SL_Solow]

Shaun, as noted in my first post, we shut down in mid August and were playing on Memorial day weekend.  We are in the Chicago area.  We had a mild winter which probably helped.  Greens rolled true and were kept in the 10 range the first summer.  capable of getting faster but we choose not to be silly very often.  some thin spots early on which we babied but rapidly had complete coverage.  We also did the approaches, both to encourage the ground game and to provide a buffer to make it easier to keep out Poa.  Approaches were seeded with a less aggressive bent.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Pete, remember that "most courses do a greens project every 10 years or so"...

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/kroichick/article/Harding-s-greens-will-be-replaced-4353249.php

[Anthony_Nysse]

Modify the soil/thatch layer as much as possible-Drill and fill, vertidrain, core aerify and graden. That's the first year. Get on a hand watering program. I have never been a fan of deep and infrequent, unless trying to flush salts. Handwatering drives roots and keeps the surface firm day in a day out. I always felt and deep and infrequent watering program made for 2-3 days of very soft surfaces and depending on the climate, you may not want to have wet greens very long. As stated, there are SO MANY variables to this with modifying the soil being #1. With the proper programs and the acceptance of sub par surfaces around aerification, very good green speeds are likely. You will not have dirt with a good watering and topdressing program. The more sand in the canopy, the smoother the put and TO ME, the higher height of cut can be utilized and believe it or not, faster greens. We do not have to mow ultra low here but are consistently 12.5+. The membership has backed our program and we have healthy, firm, grain free greens.

[Thomas Dai]

Greg,

This is a damn good thread.

Well done for starting it.

Very interesting, informative and educational posts coming in - thanks to all who've posted.

All the best

[Shaun Feidt]

You have decades old push up greens on highly compacted soil. There is no overwhelming support to rebuild to USGA or other sand based specs. What is your prescription for maintaining them as push ups knowing the desired green speeds are around 12 and that isn't changing anytime soon.

1. Soil amendment program - frequent aerification with frequent light watering

2. Minimal aerification  and infrequent deep watering

What happens if you opt for #1 then, after a few years, go for #2?

Greg, I never had great success with the deep watering.  Even with an XGD sytem, agressive aerification, deep tine, and topdressing, we are still almost 100% poa, so our root system in the summer is shallow when compared to bentgrass and bermuda.  Deep watering leaves the greens too soft for days, and leads to a higher potential of a diesease outbreak.    Our success truly comes from handwatering greens.  The only time we use our overhead irrigation on greens is during aerification and to water in fertilizer or wetting agent.  I would think many in my same situation take a similar approach to water management. 

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

The recommendations above pretty much cover it. If a rebuild is out of the question then finding a way to remove water as quick as possible is key. XGD / TDI are great methods to facilitate that. Incorporating as much sand as possible to get the water to those drain lines is what completes the system. Future aeration & topdressing (ie the standard practices at most clubs) will be key to keep organic matter to a minimum, as a drainage system is only as good as it's slowest draining part.....

As for watering I wouldn't go into it with a specific method in mind - other than to minimize how much is applied - as it will be progressive as the drainage of the green changes and how it handles the quantity being put down. With the tech like moisture meters  it is easier to find the right program and keep them as close to dry without doing any long term harm. Deep and infrequent watering works great on USGA spec greens but it's effectiveness varies greatly on modified and push-up greens depending on how they can handle it.

Greenspeed depends on a lot of factors (weather, how the green drains, turf type etc) but I think over time it could be achievable for a good percentage of the year if the basics are right.

Finally the poa - if you are in an area where it craps out each summer (or will if the green speeds go toward 12') then regrassing or starting a program to convert it (not really effective) should be looked into as creeping bentgrass provides a more consistent surface all year.

[Bradley Anderson]

I think it is worth the time to hire an architect to recommend tree removal on shaded greens. Shaded greens will only support Poa annua.

The architect should also analyze the contours with an eye towards regrading any surface drainage routes that may have become blocked by bunker sand accumulations thrown up on the collars and putting surfaces. Older greens can retain significant pockets of water from rain and snow, and those areas will become 100% Poa annua, vulnerable to winter ice damage and summer  heat stress. Bentgrass always looses the battle to Poa annua where surface drainage is compromised.

Now with the XGD you can positively effect subsurface drainage to bring about a transition from Poa annua to bent.

Deep and infrequent watering, together with lean fertility and growth regulators etc. is not going to effect Poa annua that much. The fact is Poa annua germinates and establishes itself at colder times of the year when irrigation systems aren't even being used. This is why subsurface and surface drainage are most critical in bringing about a transition to bentgrass. With good drainage, none of the other programs work in the long run.

Poa annua looses the battle to bentgrass when the green has full sun and the soil moisture content is brought down to lower levels.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Deep and infrequent watering, together with lean fertility and growth regulators etc. is not going to effect Poa annua that much. The fact is

Without knowing the grass type of climate, this would still scare me. We would rather be able to control where the water goes instead of hoping the subsurface is working perfectly and that a dry down can/will happen. A drier, firmer plant is healthier, my resistant plant. It's much harder for a plant to get a disease outbreak when its never really wet.

[Bradley Anderson]

Anthony,

If you probe the soil layers around greenside bunkers of older greens you will find areas where the greenside bunker sand has raised the contours to elevations that block the flow of surface water. Areas that were originally designed to channel water off the greens are now holding water. Now when the weather cools and your evaporation rates drop next to zero those pockets retain most of what falls on them in the form of rain and snow. This is Poa heaven. Sprinkler management, through the warmer months, can certainly give the upper hand back to the bentgrass, but only if it doesn't rain.

In my opinion, this SAHARA EFFECT, combined with shade, is a big factor in why older greens become predominately Poa annua.

The other factor is species. The older species of bentgrass were selected and bred for their ability to generate 4-7 leaves per plant at cutting heights around 1/4". At 1/8th of an inch those older bents only produce 2-3 leaves per plant and Poa always wins that battle. But even the newer strains of bent will loose the battle to Poa if the soil retains too much moisture.

[Ryan DeMay]

Good stuff thus far with regards to adding XGD or the like.  If it were me, I would also like to know more about the grass(es) present and also the microclimate of each green site.  

One thing no one mentioned here was an ISTRC test.  For those of you not familiar with the ISTRC test, you take an undisturbed column of soil at a 4" or 8" depth by pounding a 2" diameter pipe into the green.  This sample is then sent to the lab for a physical analysis of the soil composition and also the measure infiltration rates, organic matter percentage, water holding capacity, and root mass.  The report also breaks down, inch-by-inch, the physical properties and particle size distribution of the root zone media.  This test can be used to justify a course of action including aerification frequency, agressiveness, etc. and also help in understanding how water will move through the existing profile.  Most importantly, it will give the superintendent and the club a quantifiable report to use a baseline and compare to in the future as things progress.

Below is a link to a sample ISTRC report for a native soil green.

http://www.istrc.com/documents/Full%20Report%20Sample%20-%20Native%20Soil%20Green.pdf

[Jason Topp]

I have some experience with these issues as a Green Chair that went through a rough year on push up greens that were built between 1921 and 1960.  Our thatch had been well controlled but the method for addressing problem greens varied significantly with each green.  It was a very educational process for me although our super knew what he was doing (even though it was his first full year as the head person) and my role was confined to seeking the funding for our solutions and communicating with the membership.

1.  We did soil probes for each of the problem greens and some of the greens that were doing well - the soil profiles alone explained 90% of the difference between the healthy and damaged greens.  The greens that were most problematic were built in 1960 and had what was called a 1:1:1 construction process which was an early attempt at USGA type greens.   The effect of the construction method was to essentially create a layer of brick a few inches below the surface.  Deep Aerification and XGD were the solution for those greens.
2.  We fixed some surface drainage issues by recontouring some green surrounds that were feeding water onto the greens.
3.  One green was starved a bit due to surrounding trees and we took out a layer of trees surrounding the greens.  We used the issues as an opportunity to remove some additional trees near greens that were a potential problem in the future.
4.  Another green had roots from a giant beautiful old tree that were breaking through the surface.  We removed the tree which was expensive and painful but turned out to be a good thing bercause it was rotting and could have easily killed someone.
5.  We changed our winter green covering practices from synthetic to straw mats.  That decision is one that was more art than science because as I understand it there are tradeoffs between those choices as well as the choice to not cover.


The process was really interesting for me and I am proud that we did a lot for the long term health of the course while preserving its wonderful original green contours.  Sometimes a crisis has benefits.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Anthony,

If you probe the soil layers around greenside bunkers of older greens you will find areas where the greenside bunker sand has raised the contours to elevations that block the flow of surface water. Areas that were originally designed to channel water off the greens are now holding water. Now when the weather cools and your evaporation rates drop next to zero those pockets retain most of what falls on them in the form of rain and snow. This is Poa heaven. Sprinkler management, through the warmer months, can certainly give the upper hand back to the bentgrass, but only if it doesn't rain.

In my opinion, this SAHARA EFFECT, combined with shade, is a big factor in why older greens become predominately Poa annua.

The other factor is species. The older species of bentgrass were selected and bred for their ability to generate 4-7 leaves per plant at cutting heights around 1/4". At 1/8th of an inch those older bents only produce 2-3 leaves per plant and Poa always wins that battle. But even the newer strains of bent will loose the battle to Poa if the soil retains too much moisture.

FWIW based on the testing, if the new chemical PoaCure (Methiozolin) gets approved, converting/removing poa on greens will be less of an issue going forward. Of course creating an environment less favorable for poa will still be important at least PoaCure should provide a tool to help/accelerate the bentgrass's ability to get established and be competitive toward the poa.

[JT Taylor]

Was doing some research on XGD using the search function and found this thread. I am on the Green committee at a club on the east side of Cleveland and we recently received Board approval to install XGD in 17 of our 90 year old greens (one of our greens was rebuilt to USGA specs, for the second time, in late 2012 so no need to do that one). Based on all the research we have done, it appears we have made the right decision, short of gassing all our greens and starting over which isn't an appealing option in our part of the country where the season is six months if you're lucky.

We plan to begin the installation in mid September and my question to the superintendents and/or designers on the site is whether we should still proceed with our deep tine aerification in early October right after we complete the XGD installation.  Our current procedure is one deep tine in early October every year and top dressing and verticutting throughout the season.

Any experience with this issue would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

JT

[Patrick_Mucci]

WHY 12 ?

What part of the country ?

[JT Taylor]

Pat:

Not sure that I fully understand your questions.  I assume you are asking why we only are considering 12 holes but my post said we are only doing 17 greens and the reason for that is one of our greens was already blown up and redone to USGA specs in 2012 shortly after we hosted the U.S. Women's Amateur. 

The course is located in Northeast Ohio about 20 miles southeast of downtown Cleveland. Our season is typically six months from April 15th to October 15th and we aerify usually around Oct. 10th. 

Thanks, Pat.

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