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Emile Bonfiglio

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Cabo on the Rise?
« on: March 12, 2013, 05:51:52 PM »
Golf Course Architecture Magazine is reporting work has begun on a new Jack Signature course at Quivira in Cabo http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Quivira-Los-Cabos-work-underway/2678/Default.aspx. Diamante has the Tiger Woods course under construction too, but course like Bahia de los Suernos are closed and Puerto Los Cabos is playing a composite course because they can't finnish either one.

What potential is left for Cabo?
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paul cowley

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2013, 06:43:18 PM »
Mucho mucho...unfortunately Bahia de los Suenos was unsustainable and ahead of its time. All the others should continue to do well.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Greg Tallman

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2013, 07:26:48 PM »
What potential is left for Cabo?

Pacific side:
1. Diamante Woods (they missed the boat on naming that one)
2. Diamante III
3. San Cristobal - my money is on that being under a different name. Land adjacent to Diamante and some decent dunes to build in... original Kidd routing was a disaster
4. Rancho San Lucas - beyond Cristobal this property has already seen a couple Norman routings though hard to tell what or when will happen on this land that has been sold and then returned to the original owner who has other resort properties in operation in the area

Corridor (Stretch from San Lucas to San José)
1. Chileno Bay - sitting there about 90% complete now and being cared for to some degree... tough call on when/if this gets open
2. Vista Serena - next door to Cabo del Sol had a Eckenrode routiong ready to go prior to the economic downturn. Development moving forward though the hotel (Montage) and golf now seem to be on the back burner
3. Querencia #2 . Hanse routing shelved with the downturn... hard to imagine this coming back to life
4. Chileno Bay II - who knows
5. Cabo del Sol III - Hard to judge when but with the luxury hotel getting ready to begin soon we may see some activity but, like the others, who knows

San José/East Cape
1. Puerto Los Cabos - finish off the courses Emile mentions - sooner rather than later as they are opening a few hotels on the property
2. Cabo Riviera - huge project, huge marina... RTJII golf in a few years more than likely
3. Mayan Palace - multiple courses planned (JN) timing hard to guess... well fudned so who knows
4. Another 3 or 4 projects on the drawing board - Coore had done a routing for a course at Punta Gorda but that fell apart

Tiger course will give the area a nice shot in the arm regardless of quality.

Quivira will be very magazine/photo friendly while the overall quality of golf will probably be below the upper echelon of Cabo golf.
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Greg Tallman

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2013, 07:32:04 PM »
Quote from: paul cowley on March 12, 2013, 06:43:18 PM
Mucho mucho...unfortunately Bahia de los Suenos was unsustainable and ahead of its time. All the others should continue to do well.

That happens when you are paying 5x what others (cabo) are paying for water.
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Emile Bonfiglio

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2013, 12:18:24 AM »
Greg that was such a good response! Thank you. My brother owns a house in La Ventana and we drove by Bahia in December, a neat place but man it looked deader than dead there...maybe that is why they used to call it the Bay of the Dead?
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Jason Topp

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2013, 12:21:38 AM »
I seem to be doing my part.  I will have visted 3 times in 16 months as of April. The weather is as good as I have experienced for escaping Minnesota winter. 
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Jim Nugent

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2013, 02:08:10 AM »
Greg, do you know anything about the Tiger course?  Good, bad, ugly? 
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2013, 11:22:56 AM »
Jim
I was there in December and walked the property whilst looking at the holes already started.
From what could be seen, it will appear to be somewhat similar to the Weiskopf Canyon course at Del Sol.
No access to Ocean prorety, Ocean will be visible almost throught but at a distance.
The land runs through typicla Cabo desert landscape, has some reasonable elevation change and there is intesnt to create some"dune like" appearence on some holes.
Green complexes look very playable on the plans and in general not as challenging as couse as its wonderous neighbour.

It promises to be a course similar in staure to the Canyon course at del sol when comparing courses on the same property.

I also took the drive up to los Suenos while there, well worth the trip to walk the property, and you can see what a good course this is.
The layout is what you would expect from Mr Doak, I just hope someone steps in to save the place.
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Greg Tallman

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2013, 02:59:37 PM »
Emile, Bahia de los Muertos... perhaps it is simple karma for having tried to rename the area????? They have shut off all water and are selling all mainteannce equipment... sad to see but if there is ever to be a golf course there it would appear to be a "do over" scenario.

Jim, MWP is pretty close on the Tiger course. It will not have near the elevation changes or our Desert Course (about 215 feet) or the massive canyons but will have the same distant ocean views, arroyo hazards and desert style course. My guess is it will be very similar to the yet to open Chileno Bay course and would be right there in terms of quality (if Chileno opened today I would place it behind only The Ocean Course and Diamante in Cabo... it is good). I anticipate El Cardonal being that good for one reason - Paul Cowley is on site almost every day. I suspect the publicity of the course to be greater than what they received for the Dunes course because it is Tiger and it will be pretty good.

Jason, When do you work?
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2013, 03:27:56 PM »
Couldnt agree more Greg re the Paul comment.
Everybody speaks so highly of his "input" on the Dunes course, I just hope that he is also working on numbers 12-13 on the Dunes soon!!!
I took a peak at the Chileno course while we were there and I agree it looks very promising.
Hope it will be open for play next December.

When is the college event Greg..more info re teams etc available?
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Greg Tallman

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2013, 04:30:25 PM »
Quote from: Michael Wharton-Palmer on March 13, 2013, 03:27:56 PM
Couldnt agree more Greg re the Paul comment.
Everybody speaks so highly of his "input" on the Dunes course, I just hope that he is also working on numbers 12-13 on the Dunes soon!!!
I took a peak at the Chileno course while we were there and I agree it looks very promising.
Hope it will be open for play next December.

When is the college event Greg..more info re teams etc available?

MWP - College event is October 4-8 this year. It was thrown together at the last minute as the host school was thinking in terms of 2014 but decided to try 2013 at the last possible moment.

As of this moment we have the following teams:
Santa Clara (host school)
St. Mary's (CA)
Univ. of San Francisco
UC Irvine
Loyola Marymount Univ.
Texas State
South Dakota State
Seattle Univ. (WA)
Weber State Univ. (UT)
Towson State (MD)
Bowling Green (OH)
CSU Northridge
CSU Fullerton
Long Beach State

Most likley New Mexico and UNC Wilmington to round out the field.

Rob already has tons of interest for 2014 so he will develop the field based on his contacts, strength of field and past particpation. He should get a couple of top teams next year but that is not what this event is about. He (and I) just want to put on a first class event in a great location filled primarily with teams for which this will be their #1 event/recruiting tool.
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Greg Tallman

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2013, 04:34:45 PM »
Quote from: Michael Wharton-Palmer on March 13, 2013, 03:27:56 PM
I just hope that he is also working on numbers 12-13 on the Dunes soon!!!

What is wrong with the current 12 & 13? the new 12th will probably be the most wind exposed tee shot on the course... do they need another such tee shot?
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2013, 04:43:10 PM »
I know we dont agree on this Greg
But I just like the thought of two more holes rather than the current ones.
I like #13, but think 12 is the weakest hole on the course, both esthetically and in playability.
it simply doesnt fit the look of the other 17 holes to my eye.
Love #13 though, great hole.
Iunderstand the wind issue, but isnt that really just bad for two months of the year?
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Greg Tallman

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2013, 04:53:29 PM »
Quote from: Michael Wharton-Palmer on March 13, 2013, 04:43:10 PM
I know we dont agree on this GregJoin the crowd... how can the entire world be so wrong about so many things?  ;)
But I just like the thought of two more holes rather than the current ones.Agree, on papaer it is a no brainer... put holes in the dunes going toward the ocean... but is it better for the golf course?
I like #13, but think 12 is the weakest hole on the course, both esthetically and in playability. Can't be anything less appealing aesthetically than the 9th... 12th is far more attractive than the 9th
it simply doesnt fit the look of the other 17 holes to my eye.Again, cannot see how one does not identify the 9th as being unlike the others
Love #13 though, great hole. Oh my! We really disagree here. Like the tee shot that leaves you wondering what the best line is but not a fan of the green... why bench it in? why not another complaex that follows the slope as it climbs into the dune? Have often wondered if a massive double green with #10 was ever considered. Don't hate me Paul!!!
Iunderstand the wind issue, but isnt that really just bad for two months of the year? I know you bought out there but do you really believe what the sales guys tell you about the weather??? 2 months??? Oh my!

Please take my jabs as they are intended... all in good fun
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 05:11:57 PM by Greg Tallman »
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Jason Topp

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2013, 04:59:24 PM »
Quote from: Greg Tallman on March 13, 2013, 02:59:37 PM

Jason, When do you work?

Only when I need to.
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Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2013, 05:01:57 PM »
Seriously, I dont know how aften the wind is really strong, .
The weather channel states March and April, and ant wind I have encountered has not been unplayable or even farsical!!
I will agree on number 9..forgot about that hole..a big yuk!!!what is that green all about?????/
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Greg Tallman

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Re: Cabo on the Rise?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2013, 05:14:46 PM »
Quote from: Michael Wharton-Palmer on March 13, 2013, 05:01:57 PM
Seriously, I dont know how aften the wind is really strong, .
The weather channel states March and April, and ant wind I have encountered has not been unplayable or even farsical!!
I will agree on number 9..forgot about that hole..a big yuk!!!what is that green all about?????/

All I will say about the wind is that it is more often than not. In fariness though the course NEEDS a 10 MPH wind to bring out the fun factor.... 25+ makes it silly though.

Good news on 9 is that they built the clubhouse so close to the green that they will eventually move the green.
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