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Jason Topp

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I have always found efforts to discuss golf course design in the hypothetical to be difficult, but I will give this a flyer.  "Standard" golf course designs in the US have 4 par threes, 4 par fives and 10 par fours.  Usually there is a tee in the 6500-6600 yard range.  If a course design ignored par and tried to create a set of holes that totaled the same 6500-6600 length but did so by having holes evenly spaced throughout a distance spectrum, would such an approach be an improvement?

I know that the answer depends on wind, hills, ground conditions, design and all other similar factors which would greatly influence the quality of the product, but try and hold those considerations equal and isolate the factor of hole lengths.  

One very "standard" course I play has the following yardages - par 3's 145,155, 200, 215; par 4's 350, 360, 360, 370, 375, 380, 390, 395, 400, 420; par 5's 495, 510, 520, 525 for a total yardage of 6560.  I believe Flynn or one of the other golden age designers had a list of hole lengths he considered ideal that carried more variety than my standard course but such charts still carry gaps excluding holes of certain lengths.

My imaginary course would have yardages at 25 yard increments going from 150 up to 575 and measure a total distance of 6525.  The yardages such an approach would change from the "standard" course would be 250, 275, 300, 325, 450, 475, 550 and 575. In exchange,the imaginary course would greatly reduce the bread and butter 360-400 yard par fours that predominate on the “standard” course (2 instead of 8 ).

One advantage of the imaginary course is that players of all skill levels would have “reach” holes where one would need to hit it on the screws to hit a green in a certain number of shots.  For me, the 250 yard par 3 and the 475 yard par four would be such holes most likely.  For someone that hits the ball 300 yards, the 300 yard par 4 and the 575 yard par five would be those holes and for the 200 yard hitter, those holes would be at 200 yards, 375 and 550. In different weather conditions, the "reach" holes would change but would always exist at some point in the round.
 
Another advantage of the imaginary course is that you could see players who hit the ball vastly different lengths playing from the same tees and thinking of par in different terms.  A person who hits the ball 300 yards off the tee might think of par as 68 with the par 5’s consisting of the 550 and 575 yard holes and the par 3’s consisting of the 150-275 yard holes.  A short hitter might think of the course as par 74 with lengths of 450 and above considered par fives.  Most of us would think of the course as a par 72.  

It strikes me that the imaginary course would be perceived as more difficult than the standard course.  I suspect the advantage one would get from the shorter holes would be more than offset by the difficulty associated with the longer par 3’s, 4’s and 5’s.  

For this reason, the course might be thought of as “unfair” when (if one sets aside notions of par) it would be in many respects the fairest possible test of golf because it would challenge, from a distance perspective, all aspects of one’s game.

In my experience, Coore/Crenshaw courses are the closest experience I have had in real life to my imaginary course.  I have found myself on occasion wishing for a more standard mid-length par four on their courses.

Do you think my imaginary course would be a great idea or are there good reasons not many courses are similar to my imaginary course?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jason,

I think you're on to something. Generally speaking your "imaginary" course wouldn't be built today mostly due to the obsession over par and golfer's desires to reach every hole in regulation. One of the things I've talked about at T&C is removing par from the scorecard because I think it detracts from the strategy of many holes. For example, on the 468 yard 6th, many players don't enjoy it because they can't reach it in two consistently enough for it's par...but in reality it fits perfectly in the scale of your imaginary course above.

Just for fun, I listed up T&C's hole yardages in order from lowest to highest. Other than two ~520 yard holes (according to scorecard...one of them can actually play much longer if played from the 12th tee) the holes come pretty close to the scale you note above:

110
163
170
186
240
283
324
337
354
366
377
414
468
490
521
522
533
552
H.P.S.

Garland Bayley

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As Tom Doak mentioned on a recent thread, this is the scheme he used for his olympics design, and for one proposal since then.

For those of you that remember John K Moore, I proposed a course based on this scheme for him so that he could use all the clubs in his bag, testing the long shots with long clubs several times. For him, there was no three shot hole on the course, as there probably wouldn't be for Jason's scheme either. For long hitters like John, Jason's proposal would have a par of 68 or 69.

I'm all for Jason's scheme. My thoughts have been moving that way since first seeing histograms that S Thompson would do to show the variation in yardage for his holes.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

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Jason:

For the Rio project I proposed building holes in 30-meter increments, starting from 140m as follows:

Par-3's at 130, 160, 190, 220, 250 m

Par-4's at 280, 310, 340, 370, 400, 430, 460, and 490 m

Par-5's at 520, 550, 580, 610 and 640 m

I think that added up to 7290 m.  The numbers on the par-5's seem shockingly long, but, those are what it would take to stop Tour pros from playing them all like par-4 holes.

However, we did not intend to have the course be that long all the time.  The other part of our proposal was to move the tees around in 10m increments each day, including having one day where the men played the women's yardage, and one day where the women played the men's.  The purpose of that would be to determine how much difference the total length really makes.  I'm not convinced it makes all that much difference.  For example, if you move up everything 30m from the numbers above, all you've done is exchanged the 640m hole for a 100m hole at the other end of the spectrum ... so you have taken 540m off the total yardage, and reduced par by two shots, exchanging a par-5 for a par-3.  Looked at in that light, all these silly renovations of courses for major championships are probably adding less than 0.5 strokes to the overall difficulty of the course.

Jason Topp

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Thanks Tom.  I did not remember this aspect of your proposal but was under no illusions my idea was a new one. 

How do you handle hazard placement on such a course?

What is your sense as to how customers would react to such a course?  Can you think of any courses that come close to such an approach?

I was pretty suprised that the yardages on Pat's course are in the range of the idea. I have played it many times and never thought of it in that manner.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
I don't think I've seen a course which takes this approach, or anything very close to it.  I only suggested it for the Rio project (and for Dallas) because they were very flat properties and there weren't many ground features that dictated a green site or the length of a particular hole.  If you have a site like Pacific Dunes, you do not think in ideal terms, you go with what God gave you.

The ideas for hazard placement were also unusually "scientific" for me but I'm not sure I want to divulge everything here.  Let's just say that I was trying to make everything very balanced, and to vary the distances used, and then use the movement of the tees to change which hazards would come into play for a given player on each day.  Ideally, there would always be some carries that were right at the limit of each player's comfort zone, and then those same bunkers would be more easily carried or impossible to carry on another day.

Customers would be just fine if you could really set it up so they could choose their own appropriate yardage.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
...
I think that added up to 7290 m.  The numbers on the par-5's seem shockingly long, but, those are what it would take to stop Tour pros from playing them all like par-4 holes.
...

I don't see the need for creating holes that would "stop Tour pros from playing them all like par-4 holes" except when designing a course the Tour pros will play in competition. Even then, the USGA and R&A often reduce par for a course because some of the par 5s will play like par 4s for tour pros.

If you use this scheme and A. Vernon Macan's philosophy of never really creating three shot holes, you can create a course that may be only par 68 for the longest players, but they will still get to use their longest clubs multiple times. Such a shorter course will fit the short hitter, but just play to a higher par like 72.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
...
I think that added up to 7290 m.  The numbers on the par-5's seem shockingly long, but, those are what it would take to stop Tour pros from playing them all like par-4 holes.
...

I don't see the need for creating holes that would "stop Tour pros from playing them all like par-4 holes" except when designing a course the Tour pros will play in competition. Even then, the USGA and R&A often reduce par for a course because some of the par 5s will play like par 4s for tour pros.

If you use this scheme and A. Vernon Macan's philosophy of never really creating three shot holes, you can create a course that may be only par 68 for the longest players, but they will still get to use their longest clubs multiple times. Such a shorter course will fit the short hitter, but just play to a higher par like 72.


GJ:  Generally, I agree with your point.  But the only two times I've considered doing this it was for a competition course, and I think it would be important to have a hole where even the longest hitters have to think twice about whether they're going for the green or not -- in which case, we're going to have to get up well over 600 yards.

On a course for normal people, where Tour pros were not a factor, you could come down to 25-yard increments as Jason suggests.

Mike Nuzzo

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Tom
I thought you had seen a course with that approach?
See below

Jason
I wrote an essay about ideal yardages in the soon to be released Golf Architecture Volume 6 compiled by Paul Daley
Here is a sneak peek:

Wolf Point:
*these yardages are theoretical - you still play from where you want
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks for your edification about Wolf Point Mike.
I was unaware of what you had done there. I guess I just don't get out much.
Patrick Mucci take note. Mike and Don rock as apparently does Wolf Point!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2013, 11:18:43 PM »
Mike,

I think I am paraphrasing you (though it may have been Don who wrote it), more important than variety in approach yardage is variety in the types of shots required/available.

When I played Streamsong Red I had wedge yardage approaches on 10 different holes but had no idea that was the case because rarely was the shot I hit just a stock wedge.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2013, 11:22:55 PM »
So now we have three proposals.

Mine
130 155 180 205 230 255 280 305 330 355 380 405 430 455 480 505 530 555 = 6165

Jason's
150 175 200 225 250 275 300 325 350 375 400 425 450 475 500 525 550 575 = 6525

Tom's in meters
130 160 190 220 250 280 310 340 370 400 430 460 490 520 550 580 610 640 = 7290

Which would you choose to be the universal one tee course that Patrick proposed on a recent thread?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55057.0.html
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2013, 11:48:53 PM »
Mark
Yes
To describe the greens and their differences in well written words would be very difficult
I'd like to try one day

GJ
I don't remember posting that chart before - that is why I wrote the essay for Paul
And why did Jason get credit for 6500 when he didn't build it? 

Lastly GJ
Why do you have to build any tees let alone a universal tee?
I don't really care about the yardages at Wolf Point we just play a match.
They aren't ribbon tees, everything and everywhere is a tee!

Cheers

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2013, 12:05:25 AM »
Thanks for the input everyone.

Mike - the beauty of being a non industry participant on this site is that you don't actually have to do anything.  Wolf Point embodies so many ideas that I would love to see in practice.  I particularly like the fact it is designed to be mowed with gang mowers.  I look forward to volume 6. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2013, 03:20:18 AM »
Jason:

Suggest reading (or rereading) the first chapter of George Thomas' book.  He covers these topics, down to a suggested slate of yardages.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2013, 04:05:41 AM »
I guess I am more interested in less holes around the 500+ mark and more holes in the 100-150 and 440-490 mark.  I could care less if I ever saw another 500 yarder again.  But this is purely personal opinion.  That said, I think for most golfers 500+ yards is a waste of space.  I would definitely lean more toward GJ's model, but eliminate the two longest holes and add a shorty plus a 440ish hole.  There isn't much point in trying to cater to the smash mouth market with 6500 or even 7000 yards so we may as well drop down much more toward 6000 yards and less par (69ish).

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 04:13:21 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David_Elvins

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Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2013, 04:58:25 AM »
So now we have three proposals.

Mine
130 155 180 205 230 255 280 305 330 355 380 405 430 455 480 505 530 555 = 6165

Jason's
150 175 200 225 250 275 300 325 350 375 400 425 450 475 500 525 550 575 = 6525

Tom's in meters
130 160 190 220 250 280 310 340 370 400 430 460 490 520 550 580 610 640 = 7290

Which would you choose to be the universal one tee course that Patrick proposed on a recent thread?
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55057.0.html


Tom's obviously, because his architectural credentials stack up well against yours and Jason's.


Thanks for the interesting thread, Jason. And interesting contributions from Mike and Tom. 

I think one of the flow ons from designing a course like this is that it really makes the architect consider that one person's short par 4 is someone else's long par 4, and so on...which gets away from prescriptive architecture.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2013, 09:31:34 AM »
I guess I am more interested in less holes around the 500+ mark and more holes in the 100-150 and 440-490 mark.  I could care less if I ever saw another 500 yarder again.  But this is purely personal opinion.  That said, I think for most golfers 500+ yards is a waste of space.  I would definitely lean more toward GJ's model, but eliminate the two longest holes and add a shorty plus a 440ish hole.  There isn't much point in trying to cater to the smash mouth market with 6500 or even 7000 yards so we may as well drop down much more toward 6000 yards and less par (69ish).

Ciao

Sean:

I understand your view here, as it's basically what I've tried to do on most of my courses over the years -- which I learned from imitating Alister MacKenzie's courses and Pete Dye's courses.

But, you are really discriminating here by playing with the yardages.  That's what architects have always done when laying out their "ideal" course.  You've made a judgment that the 440- to 490-yard holes are most interesting, which is based on certain players' ability level [sounds like you anticipate 260-yard tee shots, leaving 180- to 230-yard approaches] and your belief that those lengths yield more interesting second shots.

The problem is, thanks to the lack of equipment regulation, any such number has always been a moving target, that winds up making life easy for the guys who hit it farther, and making life hard for the guys who hit it shorter.  If the longest hole is 490 yards, then the guys who hit it 330 won't be seeing many taxing approaches, will they?  I know there aren't many who hit it 330, but the other end of the scale is equally true, the guys who hit it 230 are always just out of range on those holes you favor.

Really we are arguing the wrong end of the scale.  The holes that have been eliminated from most architects' vocabulary over the years are the 230- to 310-yard holes, which are either deemed too long to be par-3's or awkwardly short to be par-4's.  I've generally avoided those lengths myself; I would guess that in thirty courses I've only built ten holes of that length.  But they include five of the best short par-4's I've ever built:

12th at Barnbougle - 270 yards
 2nd at St. Andrews Beach - 270 yards
 4th at Barnbougle - 297 yards
14th at St. Andrews Beach - 300 yards
 6th at Pacific Dunes - 310 yards

I'm just thinking maybe I shouldn't avoid those lengths after all, even though I know hardly anyone will like the 250-yard par-3's.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2013, 09:48:54 AM »
Fascinating thread and what wonderful insight rom the architects here, Jason, great job in starting this most wonderful topic.
I am alwys impressed  at just how much thought the "real" architects put into this game, and at the expense of blowing some smoke up some well hidden orrifice, thank you for ahring on this site gentlemen.

Thread like this are why I love golf and gca so much..great start to my day.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2013, 10:02:47 AM »


Really we are arguing the wrong end of the scale.  The holes that have been eliminated from most architects' vocabulary over the years are the 230- to 310-yard holes, which are either deemed too long to be par-3's or awkwardly short to be par-4's.  I've generally avoided those lengths myself; I would guess that in thirty courses I've only built ten holes of that length.  But they include five of the best short par-4's I've ever built:




I play with a group which has a wide range of handicaps and length. I said I'd "design" a more fun golf course using all the different tee pads. I just sent them this paragraph and asked if anyone had an objection to playing a couple of 280ish holes.Each of them thought it was a great idea--we currently play nothing like that yardage on any hole.

BTW--I don't know how you guys can design a golf course for the entire spectrum of players.I'm having trouble and all I've got to do is pick which tee markers to use.

This golf course architecture thing is a lot harder than it looks. ;D

Jud_T

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Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2013, 10:23:06 AM »

I'm just thinking maybe I shouldn't avoid those lengths after all, even though I know hardly anyone will like the 250-yard par-3's.


I'm thinking if anyone can get away with it, you can!  How about just building an awesome 250 yard hole and not putting a "par" on it?  I honestly think we could do with a lot more par 3 1/2's, whatever you call 'em (most would obviously feel better about them being called 4s).  Frankly anything that helps get a larger dispersion away from a monotonous serious of 380-420 yard holes, in both directions, is a positive IMO.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 10:26:02 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2013, 10:41:42 AM »
But, you are really discriminating here by playing with the yardages.  That's what architects have always done when laying out their "ideal" course.  You've made a judgment that the 440- to 490-yard holes are most interesting, which is based on certain players' ability level [sounds like you anticipate 260-yard tee shots, leaving 180- to 230-yard approaches] and your belief that those lengths yield more interesting second shots.

The problem is, thanks to the lack of equipment regulation, any such number has always been a moving target, that winds up making life easy for the guys who hit it farther, and making life hard for the guys who hit it shorter.  If the longest hole is 490 yards, then the guys who hit it 330 won't be seeing many taxing approaches, will they?  I know there aren't many who hit it 330, but the other end of the scale is equally true, the guys who hit it 230 are always just out of range on those holes you favor.

This was the idea that got me thinking about this idea.  At my former club, I played with a 75 year old 1 handicap player who hit the ball 225 yards off the tee at most.  At my new club, I play with 5 handicaps who regularly hit the ball close to 300 yards. If well designed, my imaginary course would provide an interesting test that would allow them to compete with each other, aloow both competitors to be aggressive at times and contain holes with interesting "go for it or layup decisions at some point in the round for both of them.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2013, 10:42:40 AM »
...
GJ
I don't remember posting that chart before - that is why I wrote the essay for Paul
And why did Jason get credit for 6500 when he didn't build it? 

Because we are discussing a mathematical abstraction here.  :P

Lastly GJ
Why do you have to build any tees let alone a universal tee?

Because real courses are built on undulating dunes land, not flat patches of Texas. ;D

I don't really care about the yardages at Wolf Point we just play a match.

Then why are you asking for credit. ;D

They aren't ribbon tees, everything and everywhere is a tee!

If I ever play there, you can count on me to tee it up one or two club lengths from the last hole. ;D

Cheers



"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2013, 10:53:07 AM »
...

But, you are really discriminating here by playing with the yardages.  That's what architects have always done when laying out their "ideal" course.  You've made a judgment that the 440- to 490-yard holes are most interesting, which is based on certain players' ability level [sounds like you anticipate 260-yard tee shots, leaving 180- to 230-yard approaches] and your belief that those lengths yield more interesting second shots.

The problem is, thanks to the lack of equipment regulation, any such number has always been a moving target, that winds up making life easy for the guys who hit it farther, and making life hard for the guys who hit it shorter.  If the longest hole is 490 yards, then the guys who hit it 330 won't be seeing many taxing approaches, will they?  I know there aren't many who hit it 330, but the other end of the scale is equally true, the guys who hit it 230 are always just out of range on those holes you favor.
...


Bingo. If we went back to hickory and gutties, then designing to "standard" par 4.5 and 3.5 lengths makes more sense as it did for the first golden age architects. Macan started his career with his standard 4.5 at about 475 yards. Later in his career as equipment continued to improve he had to move it to about 520 yards. I'm guessing that by doing so he eliminated a significant percent of players that could not reach in two over the percent that could before.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a different approach to hole lengths make for a better course?
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2013, 11:52:56 AM »
Good topic.  Jason isn't the only one around here to have trouble discussing design in theoretical terms, but the longer you think about it, the more scientific you tend to get, a la almost any gca who has written some theory or another down.  Witness, the king of intuitive design slowly becoming more scientific by his own admission!

Seriously though, nearly every gca does it, and all the old guys had to do it to write about their "ideal' course.  The first chart similar to the one Mike Nuzzo posted was from Stanley Thompson, I believe, or at least, that is the most well known chart.  But other old architect articles state that the starting point for variety is a variety of hole lengths.

As Jason alludes, its not just length, as depending on uphill, downhill, wind, up/down slope of LZ, etc. you might have a situation where consecutive holes with 25 yard length differences actually play with the same approach club due to those factors.  I actually try to estimate those things with what I call "effective length", but they are just estimates.  I know some say you can't figure stuff like wind out reliably, so why try, but I figure I am better off trying to balance approach distances to some degree, just to know what the golfer is likely to face in the real world, and then flesh out the green accordingly.  While they may not hit exactly a 7 iron, its nice to know that even though a hole measures 450 yards, if its downhill, downwind, and a roll out down slope in the LZ, its likely to play 30-50 yards shorter.

Even so, I start with similar 20-30 yard splits on my holes, with my starting routing more traditional par 72, 4-10-4 and the par 4 yardages at back tee yards of 340-360-380-400-420-440-440-460-480-500.  Par 3 can split 130-160-190-220 or so. As TD  alludes the par 5 holes probably need a bigger split.  That said, even mid hitting tour pros like Notah Begay still find 540-550 as tweeners, so I think his par 5 holes may be a bit long, angled towards the longest PGA Tour pros.  If you want the old Gary Player idea of one reachable by all, two tweeners, and one true three shotter, it still might be 530-560-590-620 or so.  If the top ten hit even the longest in two, so be it.

Of course, this perfect balance is only attainable on flat land, and the more the land rolls, the more variance I expect.  That said, its not really as hard to vary the hole lengths to taste on gently rolling ground as some here may think.  Push a tee a little up the hill, or move a green a little down or up, etc.  Its often about the same hole in a variety of locations that are similar.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 11:55:13 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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