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Mike Hendren

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2013, 02:08:10 PM »
I don't think the version of the 8th in the MacK drawing was built literally as drawn.

Bob

Bob, that's my recollection also.  I believe there was a single fairway bunker in the right half of the fairway that was angled from 5 to 11 o-clock and positioned from the tee so that it could be carried.  Perhaps you or someone else could post that marvelous black and white aerial that pops up here on occasion. 

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2013, 02:45:22 PM »


Is this it?  From the looks of it, there was room to play on the right side of the bunker, which would leave a better angle if trying to go in two.  The left side was certainly the safe play.

Makes one wonder why they moved away from the way it was conceived in the initial plans.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Gene Greco

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2013, 03:14:12 PM »
..the second on the 14th at Sand Hills.

Sorry, Bogero, but I just couldn't resist. :-*
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Matthew Rose

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2013, 03:14:34 PM »
8 on ANGC is an interesting hole and one I really enjoy watching every year..... it's a sneaky hole, one that on first or second glance does not appear to have much apparent trouble.

But it's a good one.... when the pros get out of position on this hole, it's hard to get back into it. Seems like someone in contention always makes a bogey here at some point and falls out.

I think it is unique, at least for a tournament hole, and I think the players really do have to think when they play it.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2013, 03:58:10 PM »
For a touring professional, what's the risk on the second shot?  They all seem to take lots of club and hit it near (or on) the green.  I know they can't go left, but what else is there to stop them from hitting as much club as they want?

WW

jim_lewis

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2013, 04:09:40 PM »
Both #8 and #2 play very differently depending on the hole location. Not many players reach, or even try to reach, the green in 2 on #8 unless the pin is up front. About the best that the long hitters can do is reach the front portion of the green, which is no bargain 2-putt if the pin is tucked in the rear. In that case, most experienced players will play long and right leaving a pitch shot directly to the back pin. From my observations, they are as likely to get up and in for a birdie with a pitch shot as they are with a long putt up and over a ridge from the front of the green. Then of course, there was the time in the 1986 Masters when both Seve and Kite, playing together, holed out for eagles from the fairway.

When the pin is right on #2, as in was last year on Sunday, most smart players (like Louie) will play for the gap between the bunkers looking for the ball to swing to the right toward the hole leaving a short birdie put (or an eagle!). Worst case it catches the right bunker leaving a high probability of a sandy birdie. Only the new guys try to fly it onto the green, because it will usually wind up behind the green where few can get down in two for a birdie. When the pin is left, very few even try to fly it onto the green. Best case you leave a long uphill putt from the right. Worst case, you leave a tricky chip from behind the green. Most will play for the bunker figuring on a sandy birdie or leave it well right of the right bunker leaving a pitch up the green. The tee has been moved so far back on that hole that many players hit less than driver off the tee to avoid the fairway bunker, conceding that that will not try to reach the green in two. Right pin is a whole different story.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Joe Bausch

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2013, 04:14:38 PM »

BB #4 as holding the topical crown...depending on your level of ability, you've got to start thinking about that second shot...on your first...and any tee shot yields a few more second shot options than "Yellow Jasmine."


I must second Vinnie's choice here as being excellent.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

jeffwarne

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2013, 04:27:12 PM »
Garland,

I dont think he is arguing that it was great when it was created, he is arguing that is great now, so how the hole played 80 years ago is not relevant, if I am reading his post correctly.

I always find it fascinating that the mounds around the green were removed in the 50's to improve spectator sight lines, and were not restored until the 70's. There is a great picture of the green here. Looks so out of place
http://03547c3.netsolhost.com/WordPress/2012/03/28/masters-countdown-eighth-hole/

I took "I am in love with this hole and can't help but think that few architects would have found it." to mean that Alister was better than other architects. But, if it was as reported above at 500 yards when created, it would probably have been a borderline two shotter for Bobby Jones.


a par 5 doesn't have to be a "two shotter" to fulfill the requirements of the thread title.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Nugent

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2013, 04:53:58 PM »

But the 8th is the best on the grounds and perhaps in the U. S.  


The average score on #8, through all Masters, is basically identical to the other par 5s at ANGC.  Only 0.05 strokes separate them: a statistical tie, I would expect. 

That says that the final outcome on 8, through all the various tournament conditions, is the same as at the other par 5s.  So is the hole really that much different, or better? 

Garland Bayley

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2013, 05:48:49 PM »
Garland,

I dont think he is arguing that it was great when it was created, he is arguing that is great now, so how the hole played 80 years ago is not relevant, if I am reading his post correctly.

I always find it fascinating that the mounds around the green were removed in the 50's to improve spectator sight lines, and were not restored until the 70's. There is a great picture of the green here. Looks so out of place
http://03547c3.netsolhost.com/WordPress/2012/03/28/masters-countdown-eighth-hole/

I took "I am in love with this hole and can't help but think that few architects would have found it." to mean that Alister was better than other architects. But, if it was as reported above at 500 yards when created, it would probably have been a borderline two shotter for Bobby Jones.


a par 5 doesn't have to be a "two shotter" to fulfill the requirements of the thread title.


But Bogey's discussion stated the possibility, although difficult, of reaching in two, i.e., borderline two-shotter. You know he can't put his whole post in the subject line. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2013, 05:49:38 PM »
For a touring professional, what's the risk on the second shot?  They all seem to take lots of club and hit it near (or on) the green.  I know they can't go left, but what else is there to stop them from hitting as much club as they want?

WW

I believe it's the mounding around the green. If you're not getting there in two you want to at least leave yourself a shot down the length of the green. Otherwise you're blind, hitting over mounds, to an incredibly narrow, slick target.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2013, 05:55:55 PM »

But the 8th is the best on the grounds and perhaps in the U. S.  


The average score on #8, through all Masters, is basically identical to the other par 5s at ANGC.  Only 0.05 strokes separate them: a statistical tie, I would expect. 

That says that the final outcome on 8, through all the various tournament conditions, is the same as at the other par 5s.  So is the hole really that much different, or better? 

Well, a hole that yield 10 doubles, 10 bogeys, ten pars, ten birdies, and ten eagles has a stroke average of par ... but it's a lot more interesting than a hole where everyone makes par.

This ties into something I like about the hole (and the two on the back nine as well), less sure of how it applies to #2.

The par 5s on the back are rightly hailed for their ability to yield eagles, birdies ... or disaster. I'm often amazed at how 8 does the same thing, but without water or much in the way of obvious hazards at all.

Michael George

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2013, 06:19:58 PM »
Best that I have played is #12 at Oakmont.  Fools gold trying to get close to that green.  Left is death.  Right rough and you cannot stop it on the green.  Really a fabulous par 5.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Matt MacIver

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2013, 08:45:55 PM »
I assumed this thread was about a hole at Augusta but my first thought was of #13, the first strategic hole I really ever noticed.  I'm not a fan of too much water but Rae's Creek has just the right amount of risk-reward. I bet when you go for the green in two if you miss you can still get your club on the ball for the next shot some 8 out of 10 times; your stance, swing and lie will likely be crap but you've got a chance at a thrilling recovery shot - or a double bogey!

Joe Leenheer

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2013, 09:02:34 PM »
Best that I have played is #12 at Oakmont.  Fools gold trying to get close to that green.  Left is death.  Right rough and you cannot stop it on the green.  Really a fabulous par 5.


I can't really quite agree with #12 as my second shot is always from the fairway bunkers on the left. One day I hope to avoid them off the tee. My plan is to hit 7 iron off the tee to end my streak.

I really like the second shot on #6 at pebble. My caddie ran up to the top of the hill to give a line. I nearly took off his head with a blistering 3 wood that settled on the back edge of the green. Maybe I'm just a low baller, but I loved the of risk taking a metal up over the cliff knowing if I catch it thin its gonzo.
Never let the quality of your game determine the quality of your time spent playing it.

Jim Nugent

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2013, 10:16:23 PM »

But the 8th is the best on the grounds and perhaps in the U. S.  


The average score on #8, through all Masters, is basically identical to the other par 5s at ANGC.  Only 0.05 strokes separate them: a statistical tie, I would expect. 

That says that the final outcome on 8, through all the various tournament conditions, is the same as at the other par 5s.  So is the hole really that much different, or better? 

Well, a hole that yield 10 doubles, 10 bogeys, ten pars, ten birdies, and ten eagles has a stroke average of par ... but it's a lot more interesting than a hole where everyone makes par.


In 2012, the only year I have stats for, #8 yielded the most pars and the least number of birdies. 

john_stiles

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2013, 11:11:26 PM »


That is a marvelous oblique aerial  photo   ;D

John Kirk

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2013, 02:06:11 AM »
Superb thread, Mike.  Generally, the greatest second shot among par fives has to be one that can either fly or bounce up there, don't you think?

Gene Greco is right to say #14 at Sand Hills is uniquely great.  I've savored 9-irons from 140 (3 feet, eagle) to 4-woods from 230; everything looks good there.  Outstanding golf hole.  With that said, the second shot at Sand Hills #16 is also tremendous.  Even this old and not that powerful player got close once, after manning up and pounding it over the bunker and catching the slope.  Great green complex at #16!!

For Ballyneal, another sand hills course with great par fives, I think you're deciding between the more common long second to #8, with a 50 yard bunker left to protect against pulls, and a trough below the green for those who slice.  Or the great second shot at #16, if you play left or big, and leave yourself with a long one over the left dune, and man up and hit the big fade fairway wood there.  Great dogleg with a funny back-to-front green.



 

Gib_Papazian

Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2013, 02:13:21 AM »
This may come as a shock to those used to my whining about Fazio's formulaic look, but #17 at Pelican Hill North always gives me pause to stop and think just how chesty I want to get. The fairway bunkering is thoughtful and the orientation of the green-complex to the line of play makes the 2nd shot more complicated than it appears from the tee. 

Jim Nugent

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2013, 02:16:01 AM »
Guys, after reading this thread, having never seen ANGC in person, I still don't understand why/how #8 is better than #13, or for the pro's, #15.  Seems like the opposite in fact, based on both scores in the tournament, and options/choices/rewards/penalties.  

For average golfers, I would think #15 is by far the hardest (and worst) of the par 5s at ANGC.  

John Kirk

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2013, 03:06:31 AM »
...
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 03:09:24 AM by John Kirk »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2013, 07:54:06 AM »
Bogey,

I'd have to disagree, compared to the other three second shots, it's rather mundane.

It also pales in comparison to the two second shots at Pine Valley

And, the second shot on # 18 at NGLA

Mike Hendren

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Re: Arguably, the best par five second shot in America is ...
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2013, 09:53:32 AM »
Bogey,

I'd have to disagree, compared to the other three second shots, it's rather mundane.

It also pales in comparison to the two second shots at Pine Valley

And, the second shot on # 18 at NGLA

Mooch, you're such a homer. I'm guessing you have a copy of the famous New Yorker map on a wall somewhere.   Haven't been to the Valley (hope to make the Crump in the next few years, spectating of course) but as you know I'm quite fond of the finisher at The National. 

Cheers.

Bogey
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 09:55:49 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

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