Slow play incident, Collegiate style

[Jim Nelson]

I spent a lot of time at the Southern Highlands Collegiate Masters over the weekend watch some of the best college players.  Cal won the team competition with Patrick Rodgers winning the individual competition in a four way playoff.  Here's the incident:

Walking by the 15 green, I heard a rules official shout out "New Mexico player, give yourself a penalty shot for slow play.  You were timed 3 times" or something pretty close to that.  I was following the Cal team, so I looked down the fairway of the par 4 15th and nobody was waiting.  I walked further down and finally saw the balls in the fairway with players approaching, the first of the final three teams.  Then it dawned on me.  The official had just given the last threesomes' New Mexico player the penalty.  This translated into the official giving the tournament leader a one-shot penalty.  He probably didn't know the guy was leading the tournament, but sure enough, it came into play.  James Erkenbeck tied wit three others and lost in a one hole playoff.

Here's the question.  Was it justified?  Does it matter he was leading the tournament?  Does it matter that slow play was pretty much the norm.  EVeryone seemed to be taking plenty of time.  By my calculations, the rounds were in the 5:45 range give or take a little.  Thoughts?

[Paul Carey]

Finally!

Of Course I have no idea as to whether it is justified but a penalty should never be a condition of a player's position in an event.  The impact on other players will, however, be greater when a penalty is given to a player near the lead.

5:45?  Unbelievable!

[Mark Pritchett]

Agreed, a player's position in a tournament should not be a factor.  If a leaderm took an improper drop and was penalized I doubt anyone was ask if it was justified becasue the player was leading the event. 

[Scott Stearns]

Slow play is slow play.  You either follow the rules or you don't.  Glad to hear someone is trying.

Not sure about yelling a penalty across a fairway, however.  Better to advise him one on one.

[Tom Yost]

  By my calculations, the rounds were in the 5:45 range give or take a little.  Thoughts?

 

A couple of weekends back, Longbow hosted an LPGA Symetra Tour event.  We went out to watch the ladies play the "driveable" par 4 eighth hole.  The conditions were difficult, cold and windy, and with the tees back and the hole playing directly into the wind, nobody was driving the green.  We spent 45 minutes there and saw only THREE groups come through.  I was about to flat line watching them on the green. Just painfully slow.

[Greg Tallman]

5:45??

Perhpas I will cancel our collegiate event before it gets off the ground.

[A.G._Crockett]

Any penalty on any player in any way involved in a 5:45 round of golf is justified.  The fact that the group behind was even slower is not relevant.

I can't imagine much that would be more boring or a bigger waste of time than watching college kids take that long to play golf.  I'd rather watch Synchronized Swimming.

[Brad Isaacs]

JIM,

I spent a fair bit of time at the Southern Highlands Collegate MAsters this past weekend.  Hold it, you said that, but I did spend time there. Sorry I couldn't watch it as much as you did, I was bored to death. I went and hit balls, forgot my 8 iron on the range... Not a sucessful day.

If I walked as slowly after a put as most of those kids did, my playing partners would throw something at me.  I would say the average threesome took close to 6 hours, if not more. It is amazing how well the college player golfs, but spare me. Just walk up and hit the ball, really, it isnt that hard.  Penalize them all for torturing the spectators. 

It is about time that someone in the lead got penalized and to have it cost him, well, I feel bad but they have got to play faster.  maybe this is a start, if someone in the lead can take a hit like that.  It needs to happen more often!!!!!!



Brad

[Pete_Pittock]

I spent a lot of time at the Southern Highlands Collegiate Masters over the weekend watch some of the best college players.  Cal won the team competition with Patrick Rodgers winning the individual competition in a four way playoff.  Here's the incident:

Walking by the 15 green, I heard a rules official shout out "New Mexico player, give yourself a penalty shot for slow play.  You were timed 3 times" or something pretty close to that.  I was following the Cal team, so I looked down the fairway of the par 4 15th and nobody was waiting.  I walked further down and finally saw the balls in the fairway with players approaching, the first of the final three teams.  Then it dawned on me.  The official had just given the last threesomes' New Mexico player the penalty.  This translated into the official giving the tournament leader a one-shot penalty.  He probably didn't know the guy was leading the tournament, but sure enough, it came into play.  James Erkenbeck tied wit three others and lost in a one hole playoff.

Here's the question.  Was it justified?  Does it matter he was leading the tournament?  Does it matter that slow play was pretty much the norm.  EVeryone seemed to be taking plenty of time.  By my calculations, the rounds were in the 5:45 range give or take a little.  Thoughts?

The position of the  following group is irrelevant. Likely they were a) behind their pace chart, b) ot of position relative to the group in front of them and)had been waned that they wre being timed or that was in the rules for the tournamant.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Where were the officials when the early groups finished? If they played in 5 hours or more, then every group behind them couldn't go any faster.

[David Bartman]

I know one of the New Mexico coaches, awaiting a response to my question on the event ...


While I totally agree with College golf needing a set up rules to make the kids play faster , as expected ,  at this tournament there was no pace of play policy defined.  

Only item that addressed slow play was that they wanted play between 5 and 5.5 hours ( Totally ridiculous in itself ) .  


The final group played in 5:20 minutes that day, seems pretty cheap to me.  The NCAA should just put a pace of play policy in place for all tournaments.  

FYI , the coach I know played on the PGA Tour, so he certainly used to a well defined pace of play policy.  What the original poster didn't indicate was how far out of position the lead group was.  

another update -  I guess the course was set up very hard, the weather was less than desirable and he thinks that 4:30 would have been a decent tournament time.   

Also , the NCAA has a time par set up for Regionals and Finals, but not for events during the year.   

[Jim Nelson]

I would be interested to hear what the NM coach says.  The team and the individual handled it well, at least in public.  I guess there was a lengthy discussion with the rules officials.  Here's my take on your comments and other thoughts:
1.  I have no idea how the lead groups were doing with their time.  I was following the final groups.
2.  I  wish I would have timed the start of the final round, but the last group finished after 5 PM.  There was a frost delay which pushed starting back an hour, but with that, they should have started by 11.  They did not because they always had to wait for the players on #1 to clear the fairway before they could tee off.  I would say that at the latest, they teed off at 11:30 but no later.
3.  The conditions on Friday were tough and they had to stop the tournament for about an hour, but Sunday, although breezy at times, was pretty nice.
4.  The hole positions were set up in generally tough positions, but not a whole lot tougher than we have for our club tournaments.  The rough was way down because of the cold and dry winter.  Really, not that bad overall.  In past years, the rough has been 4 inches, greens hard and fast.  Rain on Friday took care of the latter.
5.  All of the players I watched played composed golf with rarely an outburst even when they blew up on a hole.  Good examples of who should represent golf. 
6.  That said, they all seem to take a lot of time to walk to their balls, figure out clubs, read putts etc.  Seems there are only a couple of coaches out there per team, so they are certainly not in the ears of the players for the majority of the day.

Most people I talked to thought penalizing the one NM player was a bit rough considering they could have made the same ruling for many of the players.  That's why I brought this up.  I'm a Cal fan, so I'm not being a homer on this.  Somewhere along the line, an official or two focused on this group or player.  He did receive three warnings according to the official, so you can't say he didn't know.  On the 18th green, one of the last players was off the green by 20 ft and had a tough pitch to a back pin.  He walked all the way to the back of the green and back with his coach with the NM player and team watching.  The penalized NM player pointed out to his coach that this player was doing what he was penalized for but no one was addressing it. 

As I read others comments and thoughts, it seems to me that there is one big factor that is often overlooked.  The stakes are now huge.  The  top players turning pro get equipment contracts etc.  Sponsors exemptions depend on being one of the top players in the country. Becoming a successful pro golfer is a huge pay day.  You don't think these guys know that?  Couple that with all the instruction that says read your putts from all sides, don't take your shot until you are absolutely committed, if it's gusting, wait for the the wind to come down, make sure you follow your pre-shot routine, meticulously fix imperfections in the greens... you know, all the stuff on the golf channel.

One last thing... I want to say that I really enjoyed seeing these guys play.  I know it took awhile, but it did not bother me.  Sunny day, 65 degrees, nice lunch...  It's fun to see what they do to your home course and as always, Go Bears!!!

[Rob_Waldron]

I attended the University of South Florida Invitational at Lake Jovita a couple of weeks ago. The son of one of my golfing buddies plays for UVA and I thought it would be fun to watch Denny play a course that I was very familiar with. The round just dragged on. The kids were never in much hurry to hit a shot and never began their pre shot routine until well after the previous player hit. When the round was finally over 5 1/2 hours later I expressed my surprise to Denny's Dad. His Dad said "Welcome to college golf" and that 5 1/2 hour rounds was the norm. I was shocked that despite having rules officials from the FSGA all over the course nobody ever made a move to discourage the drawn out pace of play. Considering college golf is the training ground for professional golf, no wonder the pace on tour is so slow...... 

[Brent Hutto]

Rob,

I rather expect it trickles down in the other direction. Or more likely some of both. The Tour players are basically engaging in delibearate slow play nowadays. The college game is driven by emulation of the Tour players because that's where all the best college players want to be. So the trend flows both ways.

Whether at college, the Tour or even lower levels of big-time competitive golf the calculus nowadays seems to be that there's no possible downside to being slower than the rest of the field. But if you're faster than the slowest players out there, you will be out of rhythm and frustrated all day, every day. Hence the race to the bottom where nobody wants to be caught out trying to play faster than the slowest of the slow.

Makes me glad my place in the game of golf is 99.9% as a player and only 0.1% as a spectator. That 0.1% is getting smaller every year...

[Greg Tallman]

Interesting, New Mexico will be playing in our event... this could be fun.

[Carl Johnson]

. . .
As I read others comments and thoughts, it seems to me that there is one big factor that is often overlooked.  The stakes are now huge.  The  top players turning pro get equipment contracts etc.  Sponsors exemptions depend on being one of the top players in the country. Becoming a successful pro golfer is a huge pay day.  You don't think these guys know that?  Couple that with all the instruction that says read your putts from all sides, don't take your shot until you are absolutely committed, if it's gusting, wait for the the wind to come down, make sure you follow your pre-shot routine, meticulously fix imperfections in the greens... you know, all the stuff on the golf channel. . . .

Jim, really, how many of these guys think that they have a serious shot at "becoming a successful pro golfer" with "a huge pay day"?  I don't mean to belittle them, but just looking at the numbers of guys making (netting) big money in pro golf, the odds of even the top drawer college team golfer making it big are slim.  Moreover, what business do colleges have training pro golfers?  Football, basketball I can understand (I don't like it, but I can understand it), but golf?  Seriously.  That having been said, I agree that The Golf Channel "lesson" programs do little good for the game itself.

[Jim Nelson]

. . .
As I read others comments and thoughts, it seems to me that there is one big factor that is often overlooked.  The stakes are now huge.  The  top players turning pro get equipment contracts etc.  Sponsors exemptions depend on being one of the top players in the country. Becoming a successful pro golfer is a huge pay day.  You don't think these guys know that?  Couple that with all the instruction that says read your putts from all sides, don't take your shot until you are absolutely committed, if it's gusting, wait for the the wind to come down, make sure you follow your pre-shot routine, meticulously fix imperfections in the greens... you know, all the stuff on the golf channel. . . .

Jim, really, how many of these guys think that they have a serious shot at "becoming a successful pro golfer" with "a huge pay day"?  I don't mean to belittle them, but just looking at the numbers of guys making (netting) big money in pro golf, the odds of even the top drawer college team golfer making it big are slim.  Moreover, what business do colleges have training pro golfers?  Football, basketball I can understand (I don't like it, but I can understand it), but golf?  Seriously.  That having been said, I agree that The Golf Channel "lesson" programs do little good for the game itself.

Ah yes, but hope springs eternal, especially in youth.  How many college football players dream of the NFL?  Basketball?  How many make it?  I haven't done the math, but all of them are pretty slim odds.  Doesn't stop the dreamers though, and we encourage them with "if you work hard enough, you can achieve your goals."  Well, sort of, but probably not.  But the effort is worth it, even if you don't make the top.  I do believe it is the journey after all.  And consider that this particular tournament has had many players who are now on one of the tours... Mahan, Fowler etc.  This tournament has a bunch of top teams and players many of whom hold the dream.  But really, this is some of the highest non-professional competition in the world.  Don't tell me you don't grind a little bit more on the club championship.  People are competitive.  All these guys want to win.  Time to toss some grass...

[Carl Johnson]

. . .
As I read others comments and thoughts, it seems to me that there is one big factor that is often overlooked.  The stakes are now huge.  The  top players turning pro get equipment contracts etc.  Sponsors exemptions depend on being one of the top players in the country. Becoming a successful pro golfer is a huge pay day.  You don't think these guys know that?  Couple that with all the instruction that says read your putts from all sides, don't take your shot until you are absolutely committed, if it's gusting, wait for the the wind to come down, make sure you follow your pre-shot routine, meticulously fix imperfections in the greens... you know, all the stuff on the golf channel. . . .

Jim, really, how many of these guys think that they have a serious shot at "becoming a successful pro golfer" with "a huge pay day"?  I don't mean to belittle them, but just looking at the numbers of guys making (netting) big money in pro golf, the odds of even the top drawer college team golfer making it big are slim.  Moreover, what business do colleges have training pro golfers?  Football, basketball I can understand (I don't like it, but I can understand it), but golf?  Seriously.  That having been said, I agree that The Golf Channel "lesson" programs do little good for the game itself.

Ah yes, but hope springs eternal, especially in youth.  How many college football players dream of the NFL?  Basketball?  How many make it?  I haven't done the math, but all of them are pretty slim odds.  Doesn't stop the dreamers though, and we encourage them with "if you work hard enough, you can achieve your goals."  Well, sort of, but probably not.  But the effort is worth it, even if you don't make the top.  I do believe it is the journey after all.  And consider that this particular tournament has had many players who are now on one of the tours... Mahan, Fowler etc.  This tournament has a bunch of top teams and players many of whom hold the dream.  But really, this is some of the highest non-professional competition in the world.  Don't tell me you don't grind a little bit more on the club championship.  People are competitive.  All these guys want to win.  Time to toss some grass...

Jim, you are right, of course.  My initial response was a too hasty and too sloppy.  It is not the kids . . . they should dream.  It's the colleges that fail to direct the dreams in the right directions (and, in some cases, the parents).  Just so you know I'm not picking on someone unfairly, I'm a graduate of Duke University.  Mike Kzyecy-whatever had them by the [basket]balls.  I understand that has happened, and the school is trapped for as long as Kyzcher . . . wants to stay there.  However, why does Duke need to push its football team, let alone its golf teams?  Insanity.  I'm not sure about the men's golf team at Duke, but I think the women's team has competed at a high level in recent years.  What does that get Duke?  Or the women, save a couple who may have a pro shot.  Yes, the kids want to succeed, as they should.  The college (and their parents) need to give them reasonable direction.  The minor sports (such as golf) played at the level many colleges seem to want to is result of a jock bureaucracy that's got more power than the academic bureaucracy.  I'd say, "yes, let's have a golf team," but let's teach the kids how to really "play" golf.  The ones who see a pro career ahead of them can go straight from the junior leagues to the mini tours (or in special cases, straight to the PGA and LPGA Tours) right out of high school).

[Rob_Waldron]

Brent

You hit the nail on the head. A fast college player would be left with a lot of time on his hands. It is unfortunate that there is not some type of pace of play dictated to these kids. You can only play as fast as the group in front of you allows......

[Steve_ Shaffer]

When did college golf change to medal play from match play?

[Brent Hutto]

Around here NCAA golf has been stroke-play at least as long as I've been paying attention, since the mid-1990's.

If it was ever match play in the past maybe the change was contemporous with the goal of every collegiate golfer becoming "Play on Tour" instead of "Win the US Amateur".

[Jim Nelson]

Carl, does it make a difference in your opinion if the team is not financially supported by the university?  The Cal golf team does not receive ANY funding according to the coach.  All of their expenses are paid for by fund raising.  I think until sometime around 10 years  ago they were actually a club sport at Cal.  One thing that is really different is that the college golf teams sort of work out their own schedules.  The Cal team now has 3 1/2 weeks off.  They just need to be in a certain number of tournaments every Fall and Spring.

Rob, I agree.  I don't understand that either.  I still am a little mystified as to why he was the only player penalized our of a field of 15 teams.  I'm not sure the official who gave the penalty knew he was leading at the time.  Lotta slow play going on.

Steve, I think all of the tournaments during the season are medal.  The NCAA tournament is match play now which is a change from a few years ago when it too was medal play.

[Jim Nelson]

Carl, does it make a difference in your opinion if the team is not financially supported by the university?  The Cal golf team does not receive ANY funding according to the coach.  All of their expenses are paid for by fund raising.  I think until sometime around 10 years  ago they were actually a club sport at Cal.  One thing that is really different is that the college golf teams sort of work out their own schedules.  The Cal team now has 3 1/2 weeks off.  They just need to be in a certain number of tournaments every Fall and Spring.

As soon as I hit send, I realized that they university provides a pretty expensive scholarship for their educations!!!!

[Pete_Pittock]

Interesting, New Mexico will be playing in our event... this could be fun.

The University of New Mexico was not at the tournament. New Mexico State was participating (according to Golfstat). Know you are just responding to the original post. 

Also do not know of the format was 18-18-18 or 36-18. Pace of play is more difficult to enforce on a double round, shotgun start, b ut is has been done when a group is really out of position. On a 36 hole day they are walking maybe 10-12 miles and carrying their clubs, and likely trying to conserve energy.

As far as they hit it, they need to be a quarter mile behind the group in front if they are to be considered out of position (excepting 3 pars).

[Jim Nelson]

Interesting, New Mexico will be playing in our event... this could be fun.

The University of New Mexico was not at the tournament. New Mexico State was participating (according to Golfstat). Know you are just responding to the original post. 

Also do not know of the format was 18-18-18 or 36-18. Pace of play is more difficult to enforce on a double round, shotgun start, b ut is has been done when a group is really out of position. On a 36 hole day they are walking maybe 10-12 miles and carrying their clubs, and likely trying to conserve energy.

As far as they hit it, they need to be a quarter mile behind the group in front if they are to be considered out of position (excepting 3 pars).

Pete, it was New Mexico, not New Mexico State and the format was 18/18/18. 

Your point about distances is well taken.  #3 is a long par 5 over water.  Some play it as a three shot, but many, with a well placed drive, go for the green in two.  Adds at least 5-10 minutes of wait time for the guys on the tee.  #5 is a short par 4 over water.  Same applies.  With two such holes almost back to back, you have added 10-20 minutes and they haven't even completed 5 holes.  They started to call up the players on #5 to speed it up.