[Jim_Coleman]

    On one of the last few holes yesterday (17, I think), McDowell hit a shot three feet from the hole.  Tiger had a about a forty foot chip shot.  McDowell did not mark his ball.  The commentator (Jacobson, I think) commented that this showed how confident Tiger was.  I'll bet a dollar to a dime that one of the following two conversations occurred: Tiger: "You can leave it there." Graeme: "OK."  Or "Graeme: "You want it marked?" Tiger: No, leave it."  Tiger chipped to a foot (not hitting McDowell's ball). If such a conversation occurred, was there a rule violation?  And, if so, what is the penalty?

[David_Elvins]

I think it would depend if McDowell's ball was in a position to assist Tiger's shot. ie. Act as a backstop.  If it is not in a position to assist his shot,there would be no violation.  I don't think 3 feet from the hole necessarily equates to a position to assist hos shot.

[AndrewB]

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-22/#22/6

Neither conversation would constitute agreeing to leave a ball that might assist the other in my view.  As written by you the conversations sound like they are clarifying whether Graeme's ball interferes with Tiger's play.  I would think Tiger would have to say "your ball may help me so please leave it" and Graeme would need to oblige for a violation to occur.  Note that if Graeme felt his ball assisted Tiger then be could have lifted it.

[A.G._Crockett]

Interesting questions.  I'll defer to others, but give my guesses.

I will guess that neither is a violation.  I will further guess that if one is and one isn't a violation, the first might be more likely to violate for some arcane reason.

[Jim_Coleman]

    That's my view.  To be collusion, do you have to state the intention to help the other, or can it be inferred?  If there is collusion, both are disqualified.  I think there's a gentlemen's agreement on the tour that they'll scratch each other's backs.  There's no way McDowell would leave a ball three feet from the pin without Tiger's say so, and there's no reason Tiger would say so unless he thinks it might help him.  These guys mark their balls as reflexively as breathing.

[Pete Blaisdell]

    Well, first off, the commentator was just speculating what the conversation might have been but speculation does not answer the question if there was a violation of the Rules.

    Rule 22 and in particular, Decision 22/6 , covers this situation.If a competitor makes a request of a fellow competitor to NOT LIFT HIS BALL THAT MIGHT SERVE AS A BACKSTOP----------then we have an agreement between 2 players that results in DISQUALIFICATION UNDER Rule 21.

    It would all hinge on what was said. Speculation does not help us here. I did not see the telecast and this is the first I've heard of it. I've only dealt with this situation once and I interviewed both players and their answers to my questiond left me no choice but to DQ both players. I should add that these two players had done this a couple of times in the round before it was brought to my attention..

   Leave it to the Tour Staff to sort it out if it's brought up. It could be totally innocent with no intent to give a player a possible advantage. I feel Tiger and Graeme would know this situation and the possible ramifications.

[jeffwarne]

I'm guessing a ball 3 feet right of the pin on a very easy chip never ever occurred to Tiger to even be close to being in the way.(which it CLEARLY wasn't)
Lots of blather on the telecast yesterday.
As if a TOUR round needs another way to slow down.

[Paul Carey]

I noticed at a PGA Tour event I attended last year that  those guys rarely mark their ball on the green until all balls are on the green.  I mean players do not wait for a ball to be marked prior to a chip or pitch to the green if the ball is not in the line of play.  I assume it is a speed of play issue and rarely would a pitch or a chip by these guys be far off the mark.  I assume that is what was going in yesterday.

[Chris Cupit]

Verbal traps for the unwary are crappy rules.  A guy shouldn't get DQ'd for what he SAYS when the result of the violation doesn't even affect his score.  This should be a DQ for the player that benefits and 1 stroke for the guy who picks up to help him.  

I am commenting only on this statement as I just don't know enough about the original rules question.

D--sometimes a player's statement is all you have to go on and one fundamental rule is that if competitors or opponents tee off and make a verbal agreement to not play by the rules, they are DQ'd the instant that agreement is made during the stipulated round or the moment one of them strikes a shot to begin their round after such an agreement is made.

Now, knowledge is key.  If they agree to something that they do not know is a violation the Rules treat them differently than if they agree to knowingly waive a rule of golf regardless of whether or not an advantage is ever gained during the round. I actually like the fact that someone wanting to cheat or play by a different set of rules, and thus, play a different game, is disqualified from the same competition as those wanting to play by a uniform standard.    

So if you and I say, "you know what, in our match today let's tap down spike marks", the moment our match begins (either of us tee off) we are both DQ'd for an agreement to waive the Rules--violation of 1-3.  Even if we play the entire round never tapping down a single mark, if our agreement becomes known we would be rightly DQ'd.

I think I understand what you are saying about not wanting to trap an unwary person (maybe in a 3-3 situation or provisional ball situation).  But to let players agree to knowingly waive rules and let them off the hook under any circumstance is a mistake I think.

[Niall C]

I recall an incident on the European tour a couple of years ago when Thomas Bjorn played on to the green and then Monty quickly played a bunker shot that hit Bjorn's ball. Supposedly the stooshie that resulted was because Bjorn felt it was bad manners for Monty not to let him mark his ball and Monty certainly apologised for it. Neither were in contention if I remember rightly.

I didn't see last nights broadcast but is it possible Tiger didn't ask and didn't give Gmac a chance to mark his ball not thinking it was going to interfere with play ?

Niall

[Chris Cupit]

A brief summary of Rule 22:

If a player believes a ball INTERFERES with his shot, he MAY have that ball marked.

If a player believes HIS BALL may ASSIST any other player's shot, he has a right to mark before that player plays.

A player can't mark just because he thinks his ball may interfere with another player's shot--he must be asked to do so.  (Unless his ball is on the green of course).

If a player refuses  to allow a player to invoke his rights (either he plays before a player wishing to mark can mark or he refuses to mark his ball when asked, then that player is disqualified).

If player's agree not to mark so as to give a player an advantage for their shot, they are disqualified. 

[Kevin_Reilly]

I didn't see last nights broadcast but is it possible Tiger didn't ask and didn't give Gmac a chance to mark his ball not thinking it was going to interfere with play ?

Niall

McDowell's ball was well away from Tiger's line.  No chance it was going to have any impact on Tiger's ball.

[Adam Clayman]

In our old Team game, we use to have the rule, (I assumed it was local?)  that as long as each player that played, had played in-turn (who was away), marking was optional. Backstops, knock-ins, became another aspect of the strategy.

There is nothing more annoying for a ready golfer, then being ready to play your chip, and have someone unnecessarily go up and mark their ball, after they had chipped. Failure to communicate

Maybe there's some room in rule 22 to change mindsets on speed of play? Not moving while someone else is playing their shot needs to be encouraged. Clearly a brief mention under etiquette in the forward of the rule book is not enough, considering it's importance to everyone's enjoyment.

[Chris Cupit]

In our old Team game, we use to have the rule, (I assumed it was local?)  that as long as each player that played, had played in-turn (who was away), marking was optional. Backstops, knock-ins, became another aspect of the strategy.

There is nothing more annoying for a ready golfer, then being ready to play your chip, and have someone unnecessarily go up and mark their ball, after they had chipped. Failure to communicate

Maybe there's some room in rule 22 to change mindsets on speed of play? Not moving while someone else is playing their shot needs to be encouraged. Clearly a brief mention under etiquette in the forward of the rule book is not enough, considering it's importance to everyone's enjoyment.

Totally agree that some rules make little sense outside of tournament play--do you really want a guy returning to the tee for a lost ball if he didn't hit a provisional?  Drop one there hit it on, take double and keep going 

Playing out of turn is actually condoned in the Decisions book due to pace of play concerns but that is the only instance I can think of and as you can guess, it is a limited exception.

 

[Jim_Coleman]

    It seems a rather odd rule that this conversation is OK:
           A: - You want me to mark it?
           B: - No, it's fine.
While this one results in disqualification:
           A: - You want me to mark it?
           B: - No, it might help me.
And, by the way, of course Graehme's ball wasn't in Tiger's line.  It operated as protection in the event Tiger pushed his chip 3 feet to the right.  I have no doubt Tiger told him to leave it.  I'm also pretty sure there wasn't an express agreement to aid Tiger.  But I'm also pretty sure both guys understood the theoretical benefit to Tiger of leaving it there.

[Lou Cutolo]

This has been going on for years on tour. Next time you watch an event notice that a ball on the green which is in a position to only help the player chipping (behind the hole on the line of play)  will not get marked. If the ball is on the line of play and only hurt the player chipping, it gets marked. I feel the players have discussed this beforehand, I little a “wink and a nod” during the round with no verbal communication, thus if they don’t verbal agree to leave the ball unmarked they have not broken the rule.

[Rich Goodale]

In stroke play (which is most of my play) I always mark my ball on the green if I think that it might help my fellow competitor (even if it is 5 feet to one side or other of the pin and pin high, it will probably help him if he hits it).  The basic principle (which may or may not be stated as such in Tuft's Tome) is "protecting the field."  This principle is a very good one to remember.

[Mark Smolens]

I believe that this dispute would conflict with Ken Fry's rant about the length of time that Tour players take to play golf. I see no basis for a belief that Tiger and GMac were in some manner "winking and nodding" or colluding to provide a measure of protection by not marking his ball. There were any number of times this weekend where I observed each of these guys, after missing a putt and intending to mark, checking to see if the mark was going to be in the way. If it wasn't, then they didn't move it. That's just common courtesy. If McDowell's ball had been in Tiger's way, or if either of them thought that there was any chance that he could hit it -- we're not talking about my friend Jim Bergsman who chips crosshanded either -- then GMac would have moved it.

It wasn't in the way. Tiger confirmed that, and hit his shot without it being moved. End of story.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

If you watch the footage carefully Tiger was in the process of his pre shot when Graeme was going to mark his ball and so as not to interupt he just left it.
He clearly asumed that Tiger didnt need it marked and in the interest of spreeding up play let it be....there is the ideal sceanrio gents.

[Jim_Kennedy]

This is much a-doo-doo about nothing. 

[Jim_Coleman]

    I agree it's much ado about nothing.  But I thought it was kinda fun.  Sorry to waste your time.

[Jim_Kennedy]

    I agree it's much ado about nothing.  But I thought it was kinda fun.  Sorry to waste your time.

It was fun, and just a funny comment from me (or so I thought).  if I thought it was a waste of time I wouldn't have posted anything.   

[JESII]

I guess I need to DQ myself from just about every tournament I've played over the last 15 years...never had the verbal conversation but I know when to get the ball out of the way and when leaving it alone is preferred. Don't think I'm the only one...

[Sean_A]

In stroke play (which is most of my play) I always mark my ball on the green if I think that it might help my fellow competitor (even if it is 5 feet to one side or other of the pin and pin high, it will probably help him if he hits it).  The basic principle (which may or may not be stated as such in Tuft's Tome) is "protecting the field."  This principle is a very good one to remember.

Rihc

I too try to mark my ball if time allows, but usually, the crafty players are well on top of it and are ready to go before I can mark. No way I am gonna stop them to mark ball unless I have been caught out with how quickly the my opponent gets ready.  To be honest though, usually marking the ball is as much about the game as getting my bag toward the next tee - tee hee.

Ciao

Ciao

[Steve Wilson]

More than twenty years ago, playing with a good friend, we were on a long par three.  He had hit a very nice tee shot to within twenty feet of the hole whilst (have to throw that in for class and gravity) I had left my effort approximately forty yards short.

"Want me to go up and mark that," Bob asked.

"No, I'm going to use it as an aiming point."

 Naturally, inevitably, I hit the one in a million shot and landed directly on top his ball.  His ball didn't move that far but mine riicocheted off the green into the gunch.  At this date I don't recall what I ended up making, but were he and I in violation of a rule, was I.  If so, what should it have been?  Just curious. 

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