News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Sheep and cattle on the course
« on: March 06, 2013, 03:18:33 PM »
Photos of older UK courses, including famous ones, show a huge disparity between the amount of trees and scrub present when the courses were initially laid-out and the current time.

Would I be correct in presuming that this is mainly because the land, even when early golf was played on it, was still being grazed by sheep and cattle and that the growth in trees and scrub has increased with the fazing out over the years of domesticated animals on courses (as well as by deliberate tree planting at some locations)?

Given how open, spacious, well conditioned and well grassed the common-land courses at places like Kington, Sutton Coldfield, Brora, Minchinhampton Old etc are, wouldn't it be nice to get some sheep and cattle back onto our courses once again, and not just links and heathland courses but parkland ones as well.

What do you reckon?

All the best.


Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2013, 04:15:35 PM »
Cattle destroy golf courses 1 hoof-print at a time. Not sure about the sheep in terms of damage, I'd be more concerned about predator's and keeping them alive, but after 5 months in Nebraska, cattle is a really bad idea.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2013, 07:17:24 PM »
Thomas,

There are large areas of land at Notts (Hollinwell) that a few years ago had all there trees cleared to return them to heathland. Most of these areas have since been fenced off and there are sheep in these areas that do eat the sapplings and keep the self set trees away.

I'd therefore say there is a good chance that the old photos we see of courses that then had few trees could well have been due to the amount of animals, or humans for that matter, using the land? I will need to check the clubs history to see if a course such as Sunningdale for example which shows very open land with few trees, actually had any animals grazing the land back then?

JK,

The examples Thomas mentions all have a variety of animals roaming across them. There are plenty of cattle roaming around Sutton Park, within which is Sutton Coldfield GC. I'm sure you will have seen pictures of the electric fences around greens at such courses? From my experience of Sutton Coldfield, hoof prints arent a problem, but then the land is well draining heathland and therefore usually firm rather than soft, thus less hoof print damage?

An interesting alternative to this is Wollaton Park GC in Nottingham (aka Wayne Manor GC ;) ) that has deer roaming the course and they dont have electric fences around greens. Sometimes the deer will go across greens and make a bit of a mess, but its seems that the greenstaff just repair the damage and everyone then gets on with playing golf?

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2013, 07:58:58 PM »
Would you rather have your grounds crew mowing greens or fixing fences and animal damage?

Colin Macqueen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2013, 09:56:53 PM »
Thomas,

Out here in Oz there are many a course where kangaroos graze to their hearts content. There is no distinction between Royal Melbourne or Mollymook …. kangaroos happily graze!
These beauties are not called macropods for nothing but at least this means their large feet spread the weight and no damage is ever done to the underlying turf. They are very neat grazers, more like rabbits than cows or sheep and thus do not pull out clumps of grass roots and all. Of course fences just make 'em guffaw unless these fences are 10 feet high.
As to their industrious nature when it comes to grazing in a well defined manner they are quintessentially Australian and do whatever they want whenever they want! More often than not they sprawl around basking in the sun ….. see what I mean!.

Cheers Colin
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2013, 11:17:25 PM »
Colin,

I hear some kangaroos can be totally oblivious from the sport being played around them  ;)

Jaeger,

I'd also prefer them tending greens and maintaining bunkers etc in preference to fighting back trees and rough. I'm pretty sure that dealing with encroaching trees and rough take more maintenance crew resources than dealing with a suitable number of an appropriate breed of livestock.


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2013, 04:11:29 AM »
Cattle destroy golf courses 1 hoof-print at a time. Not sure about the sheep in terms of damage, I'd be more concerned about predator's and keeping them alive, but after 5 months in Nebraska, cattle is a really bad idea.
Have you played Pennard, Kington or Brora?  If not, you need to and reconsider your position.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2013, 04:23:07 AM »
Heath is a created landscape, not a natural one - it returns to forest if not managed, as we have seen at lots of the Surrey/Berkshire clubs over the last fifty years. So yes, grazing, or some other external intervention, is needed to preserve it.

When researching my piece on Fowler for the magazine last year, I found an interesting newspaper clipping from the 20s, reporting the progress of construction at the Berkshire before it opened (at that time, it was going to be called Bagshot Golf Club). Now, obviously, Berkshire is pretty heavily forested, but it wasn't so dense when it opened. That wasn't because it was grazed - it's park of the Royal Parks - but, according to the newspaper, because it was 'cleared of timber during the War' (ie WW1). I hadn't thought of this reason why some of the heaths were less heavily treed previously.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2013, 04:40:25 AM »
In the best circumstances the relationship between grazing animals and courses is symbiotic.  I think this state of affairs is hard to achieve.  Kington is the only course I have seen which gets it right.  If golfers don't mind steppin' round sheep shit there is a tremendous upside to having a natural mowing and fertilizer system.  Kington's dues and green fees are very reasonable considering the high quality design and conditions.

About the worst example of animals on the course is Sutton Coldfield.  The course is clogged with rough so I don't know what the animals do.   

I am quite familiar with Pennard and there the situation is not symbiotic.  The cattle damage the course, but not to a huge degree.  The club thinks its easier to repair cow damage than fences around the greens (or at least at one time they did) so the fences were taken down.  Hoof marks don't bother me much because I am happy to play Pennard as winter rules all year round, but the cattle don't actually keep the fairways cut because there isn't enough of them.  Of course, if there were more than more damage to greens would occur.  The cows and horses help create pleasant surroundings, but are not much use to the club. That said, and this is the case almost always in England, clubs haveno choice about the animals.  People have grazing rights and thats that.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 05:00:25 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2013, 06:03:16 AM »
Sean,

So sheep are better than cows in this regard?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2013, 06:10:37 AM »

An interesting alternative to this is Wollaton Park GC in Nottingham (aka Wayne Manor GC ;) ) that has deer roaming the course and they dont have electric fences around greens. Sometimes the deer will go across greens and make a bit of a mess, but its seems that the greenstaff just repair the damage and everyone then gets on with playing golf?

Cheers,

James

I don't mind the deer at Wayne Manor, I actually quite like them. But they do cause a couple of problems.

Firstly rutting season....I'd suggest you don't get too near to any of the stags, they are rather large.

Second, those little fences around all of the smaller trees annoy me. The free drop from them (if your opponent isn't an idiot....long story which I won't go into) is alright, but it kind of negates the penal nature trees to a point as you usually end up with some sort of shot or at least one better than you would otherwise. I think the course would probably be better if it got rid of all the smaller trees and just left the rough and bigger specimens.

I have always assumed there is some sort of historical deal with the estate that the deer have to be allowed to graze on the land but I'm not certain.

On a side note, what do you think of Wollaton? I am always slightly frustrated as the land suggests it should be a better course than it is, there are a couple of poor cramped/forced holes (5&15 among others) but a few really good ones too.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2013, 06:11:24 AM »
In both my visits to Highlands Links I've seen moose prints on greens!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2013, 06:25:09 AM »
Thomas,

Out here in Oz there are many a course where kangaroos graze to their hearts content. There is no distinction between Royal Melbourne or Mollymook …. kangaroos happily graze!
These beauties are not called macropods for nothing but at least this means their large feet spread the weight and no damage is ever done to the underlying turf. They are very neat grazers, more like rabbits than cows or sheep and thus do not pull out clumps of grass roots and all. Of course fences just make 'em guffaw unless these fences are 10 feet high.
As to their industrious nature when it comes to grazing in a well defined manner they are quintessentially Australian and do whatever they want whenever they want! More often than not they sprawl around basking in the sun ….. see what I mean!.

Cheers Colin

I heard GCA's favourite sand-belt course Capital had one of their imported ones go awol, never to be seen or heard of again. I doubt Centre Dandenong road is the best place for a Kangaroo to find itself!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2013, 06:53:22 AM »
Sean,

So sheep are better than cows in this regard?

Mark

In my experience that is certainly the case, but I would stress that I have yet, with the exception of Southerndown, to come across a course in which the animals, the damage they inflict or their crap bothered me.  For some reason things are out of control at S'down - its a mess out there and its best to wear old painting troozers to play in.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 07:26:39 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2013, 07:12:00 AM »
Sean,

I can't even remember animals at Southerndown.  Shows how much personal experience influences opinion.  Like you, though, animals on the course have never bothered me.  The nearest to being a problem for me was Pennard, I guess.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2013, 09:11:48 AM »
The deer at Knole Park keep the course pretty trim and tidy.

Adam hits the nail on the head, heathland is not a natural environment, it's a managed one.
Cave Nil Vino

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2013, 11:39:13 AM »
Cattle destroy golf courses 1 hoof-print at a time. Not sure about the sheep in terms of damage, I'd be more concerned about predator's and keeping them alive, but after 5 months in Nebraska, cattle is a really bad idea.
Have you played Pennard, Kington or Brora?  If not, you need to and reconsider your position.


Have you heard of Mullen, Nebraska?! Hard to find a better piece of meat then in the Sandhills... Ever have to chase of cattle from a golf course you are trying to grow nice fescue turf?... When they run it causes even more damage.

We were happy to have them prior to construction. They dropped a nice organic layer on top of the sand, but once the course is being raked out and turf is established, it is simply not worth it.... Do you want to travel 24hrs to get to the course and find Bessy's hoof print between you and birdie putt?... NO!... Do you want to buy new irrigation heads when they step on them and break them?... NO!... Do you want to shovel up cow $hit before you can mow at 6am?.... NO!... Is it nice to have them grazing in the fenced area 20 yards from edge of the fairways... YES, and then you order 1 for dinner!


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2013, 12:02:08 PM »
That's a "no" in answer to my question, then?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2013, 02:51:40 PM »
Gents,

Many thanks for your thoughts.

Always good to hear a different perspective from a different area of the globe so thank you Jaeger and Colin for yours from afar. I remember playing in Aus, at RACV Healesville, decades ago, before its revamp, and there were roo’s every-bloody-where.

Not sure I’d like to personally meet some of the predators out Nebraska way though Jaeger, much as I’d love to see Sandhills (and the other courses in the area). They sound fantastic.

If you are in the UK though I do thoroughly recommend you visit some of the courses mentioned in this thread where domesticated animals graze. The courses named are all splendid and interesting courses in their own right, good tests of golf too, especially in a wind. The grazing animals really aren’t much of an issue in the UK, only a very small element of courses have them these days, mostly under common land grazing rights that have applied for centuries and there's only ever a few of them, never hundreds and hundreds.

After a very short while you don’t notice them that much nor the thin electric fences around many of the greens and, if there are sheep in the way, you just shout “mint sauce” at the top of your voice! Which brings me nicely to one idea of Jaegers that I do very much like the sound of and that’s  “of them grazing in the fenced area 20 yards from edge of the fairways.......and then you order 1 for dinner!”. That sounds great! Terrific line and terrific idea!

I’m not familiar with Wollaton but I looked it's and also Knole Parks websites so now I have a slight appreciation of a dear park scenario. Thanks James and Tom and Mark for the tip. I shall endeavor to visit such a course one day, but not during the rutting season!

Fascinating point Adam makes about the managed heath lands at Bagshot/The Berkshire being 'cleared of timber during the War' (ie WW1).  If this were widespread I can now understand why so many old photos taken of the likes of Sunningdale etc during and after construction showed the landscape to be so clear of trees and scrub …and there’s me thinking it was just down to a bunch of sheep and deer etc. I guess you never stop learning.

As to maintenance, Sean makes a very good point about Kington as does Mark about the deer at Knole Park. James point about the fenced off areas at Hollinwell and how the sheep “eat the saplings and keep the self set trees away” is one approach I like the sound of – why pay men and use machines when sheep will do the work for you for nothing – and thus I support Marks thoughts about staff “tending greens and maintaining bunkers etc in preference to fighting back trees and rough”. These words seem to sum things up nicely from the UK perspective, if your terrain and the type of animal present are suitable and there are no hungry predators around.

Sounds in summary as though kangaroo’s and sheep are the preferred choice of mower, maybe some deer for clearing trees and scrub but cattle and horses are best avoided. I’m very glad not to have heard any tales from afar of snakes or croc’s or ‘gators or bears or wolves or lions or tigers or other beasties of a man-eating variety, the thought of them on a golf course doesn’t appeal to me at all!

Thanks for all your contributions.

All the best.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2013, 05:06:49 PM »
Add Aberdovey






AT Brora it seemed like their was species profiling going on. ON the holes with sheep there were no cattle, on the holes with cattle there were no sheep.   The greenstaff have to "sweep" the bunkers each morning becasue that's where the sheep like to  sleep, and lets just say they are not domesticated.

« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 05:11:40 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Mickey Boland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2013, 10:20:20 PM »
All shots from Brora

Sign on #1 tee

Sign on #1 tee Brora by duckhook242, on Flickr

Electric fence at #1 green

Below #1 green Brora by duckhook242, on Flickr


#4 Brora by duckhook242, on Flickr


#6 tee Brora by duckhook242, on Flickr


Kevin & friend #12 Brora by duckhook242, on Flickr

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2013, 11:54:38 PM »
Is the title of this thread referring to GD or GW raters?  I couldn't tell.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sean Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2013, 02:58:32 AM »
Sven,

Both. You have to pick which is which.

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2013, 11:14:16 AM »
Does a course like Brora or Westward Ho! get as fast as similar course that uses more modern mowing techniques?

I sort of imagine that the fairways would be a little longer and not as fast, but I'm not sure if that's true. Of course weather would be a factor but in general.

Anders Rytter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Sheep and cattle on the course
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2013, 12:58:48 PM »
It's not that unusual having animals on the courses in Denmark.

I've seen sheep and cattle in the rough/bordering areas. Fenced.

Royal Copenhagen GK is in the Queens Deerpark 20min drive outside Copenhagen. Since it's in the deer park, theres a lot of deer running arround all over the course. most often i haven't been bothered by hoof-marks, but early in the season it can be an issue. The largest "Bull" deer can weigh 240kg (530lb), pretty big.

Royal Copenhagen GK


Royal Copenhagen GK


Royal Copenhagen GK


Hoofmark


Royal Copenhagen GK

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back