Trump at Doral

[Blake Conant]

Patrick, you have all the answers, so why ask questions in the first place?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, you have all the answers, so why ask questions in the first place?

You made definitive statements and I questioned you, so, the issue is, do you have the answers or were you just posturing ?

Would you address the questions posed to you.

Thanks

[Dan Byrnes]

I find the guys public persona a bit much but my limited exposure to his product, it is very well done.  While you can quibble about some of the architectural features the experience is first class.

Dan

[Tom Yost]

Just a quick heads up - A call-in interview with Gil Hanse in the first half hour of today's Morning Drive on The Golf Channel.

I believe the program is re-run at 9AM Eastern.

[Brad Isaacs]

Ok, so his personality rubs some the wrong way, really wrong, but he does give a quality golf experience. He is better in reality than in journalistic presentation. Still not who I would chose to hang with but I'm ok with that. He wouldn't chose me either. The concept of too big to fail strikes me when I think of his promotional endeavors.

[Tom Yost]

Interesting chat with Gil. He discussed the Doral renovation, his relationship with the Donald, and a bit about the frustrations with all the delays being encountered with the Olympic course in Rio.

Gil mentioned that Jim McLean had possession of the original Wilson drawings.  

Coincidentally, while I was watching the show, the crawler scrolled by with info about the Blue Monster indicating that the Ray Floyd/Ted McAnlis reno took place in 1966 and then a Jim McLean reno in 1999.

Interesting that some changes took place so soon after the course opened, if that date was accurate.

[jeffwarne]

Interesting chat with Gil. He discussed the Doral renovation, his relationship with the Donald, and a bit about the frustrations with all the delays being encountered with the Olympic course in Rio.

Gil mentioned that Jim McLean had possession of the original Wilson drawings.  

Coincidentally, while I was watching the show, the crawler scrolled by with info about the Blue Monster indicating that the Ray Floyd/Ted McAnlis reno took place in 1966 and then a Jim McLean reno in 1999.

Interesting that some changes took place so soon after the course opened, if that date was accurate.

Tom, The Ray Floyd reno took place in the late 90's.
It was quietly , and rightfully so, buried rather quickly.

[John McCarthy]

I thought it was funny that Trump said that 16 was going to be an island green.  Then Hanse says today that it will not be an island green. 

So who wins?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I thought it was funny that Trump said that 16 was going to be an island green.  Then Hanse says today that it will not be an island green. 

So who wins?

GOLFERS

[Jed Peters]

Brad,

Friends of mine just returned from playing Doral.

They said that the courses were in excellent condition and that the staff treated them extremely well.

I guess the right time to go there is just before their PGA event.

Trump is smart, knows what he's doing, is detail and quality product oriented and has been good for golf.

Patrick:

AMEN.

I agree. I recall one discussion with Mr Trump when I toured the "New" course before it was ready for play. I had stated that I was extremely impressed, aside for the one "island green" hole that was designed.

Come to find out that was the one hole that he had some input on. Ha. Open mouth, insert foot!

[cary lichtenstein]

I used to bash "the Donald" but my opinion is changing. I want to see what he does to the course he bought in Jupiter, Fl that used to be called the Ritz. If he makes that successful and raises the real estate values, I'll be very impressed. And how he goes about doing it, will be interesting.

Admittedly, he is way smarter than me, much more successful and I even enjoy celebrity apprentice, I must have played Doral Blue Monster a 100 times over the years, and if he makes it better, makes the resort better, than that's good for golf.

He doesn't have to do anything for "public golf", that sort of sounds like something Obama would say, Trump is an opportunist and an entrepreneur first, last and always

[Bruce Katona]

Blake: My opinion of the Trump Organization is my own, not to be shared.  Then again no one really cars what I personally think about the topic.

I read with great interest your short diatribe on "sustainability".  Being trained in environmental science and planning, your 3 stool approach is academically correct; however Pat M. hit the nail quite briefly on the head....without economic sustainability, the other two items simply don't matter. Without economics, the land will revert back to its natural state - a series of successional lanscapes until the mature self-sustaining community evolves (it could be a grassland, forest, seaside dune, etc.) or be redeveloped into another land use.

[Blake Conant]

Bruce, thanks for your input.  I wouldn't advocate for every bankrupt course to revert to its pre-development state nor should we leave economics out of the conversation.  That's not sustainable, either.  Courses like Doral that provide green space in urban areas serve an important role.  However, if Trump only considers the economic benefit without considering the environmental or social impacts, what differentiates his work from any of the work done in the 90s that created the golf industry problem?  What makes Trump different than Bobby Ginn?  Time will tell.

[Jason Thurman]

I suspect that Trump has done about as much for public golf as Coore and Crenshaw. I don't trust anyone who laments Trump buying Doral or building his course in Aberdeen but has no qualms with Trinity Forest or a $100 13-hole par 3 course.

Trump's fun to laugh at and says some pretty stupid things on a regular basis, but it's hard to argue that he's "bad for golf," whatever that means.

[Mac Plumart]

I think Trump "got it" awhile back.  But some of us are hanging on to some of his older work and not letting some of the carictature stuff go.

I haven't been, but by almost all accounts Trump International Scotland is really good.

He hired Gil for Doral...I think that will prove to be a smart choice.

I played Trump Bedminster New and it was pretty good...not perfect, but if that is his older stuff...it ain't so bad.  Now that he is "getting" it...look out.

My bet is he hits a homerun with Doral and lots of his new ventures.

[jeffwarne]

I think Trump "got it" awhile back.  But some of us are hanging on to some of his older work and not letting some of the carictature stuff go.

I haven't been, but by almost all accounts Trump International Scotland is really good.

He hired Gil for Doral...I think that will prove to be a smart choice.

I played Trump Bedminster New and it was pretty good...not perfect, but if that is his older stuff...it ain't so bad.  Now that he is "getting" it...look out.

My bet is he hits a homerun with Doral and lots of his new ventures.

+1
I don't know much about the economics of spending $300 million in acquisition and renovation, but Doral will certainly benefit from Trump, and if anyone thinks they can handle the local challenges, it's Trump. It's certainly a hot market-and Miami and Trump have a lot in common.
I look forward to the best of Gil Wilson.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JeffWarne,

The absurdity of Blake's hypothesis is that Doral sits in in the middle of an industrial area sprinkled with condo's, in close proximity to the runways of one of the busiest airports in the world.

That's one hell of an environment he wants to protect.

Perhaps, if Blake had done his homework prior to posting, he wouldn't look so foolish.
It must be the water in Northern Michigan. 

[Tommy Naccarato]

First off, Donald Trump is building "public golf."  The misconception for some of you is that the word means that it has to be affordable. Well it is affordable if your in a lower tax bracket or happen to work for Goldman-Sachs!

The truth is that for those that want to play golf and not be bothered masses, because of your celebrity or stature, or that maybe you like to be seen in places with those of a similar celebrity and stature, this man known as Donald Trump is getting it done. You may not like his personal taste in things--but that is over-looked by a great majority of you that don't get how he likes to treat his clientele, and he is providing a quality of service most of you naysayers have seemingly never seen or experienced, or that you have but didn't open yourself up to the possibility that despite being himself that he might just be on to something for those that do want that level of service or privacy at a pay-as-you-play level.

Look, I'm a person of little financial means. I struggle like many today, but I can say that the times I've experienced Ocean Trails aka Trump National Los Angeles before he owned it, the quality of service for the green fee paid there today was bar none far better then the original owners and developers could have originally dreamed!

The man knows how to entertain you and make you feel comfortable and has no problem telling you how great it is! He makes you feel as if you were a king, or member of the Fortune 500. This is what he has always done

In my lifetime, I never really liked being fawned over when wanting to go play the sport I love the most, but in due honesty, the times I've been invited there to play as a guest with non-architecturally interested friends who do frequent there its been a grand slam of great The clientele likes what he gives them for every green fee paid, as well as the service, which at Trump-LA are some of the most down to earth people I've ever met. Big surprise here: that guy some of you are vilifying, well, when he bought the place, he kept the entire staff that originated when the place opened, most of them locals from San Pedro, and when some staff has left to go to greener pastures or different careers, he has always looked at that original staff to promote from with-in! Even the Superintendent is the same guy since the placed opened. All of them greet you with a sincerity that mixes perfectly with that view of Catalina while lounging in the Southern California sun.....

And for what it's worth, the golf course, for as bad as the design is for our crowd, go there on a sunny and clear day, the place is packed, and its all golfing public which most are celebrities. The Donald has given them a perfect place to hide!

[Brad Klein]

Tommy makes a good point. The golf market is not some singular thing; there are lots of niches and smaller markets by region/demographic/aesthetic/price. It's a matter of finding one that works. Bandon and Sand Hills are not models for golf; they are anomalies that exploited certain advantages. Of course they also embody certain design principles that are transferable to any golf course, which is why they are really interesting. I do think it would be better if there were more affordable, simpler golf tracts out there, but I don't blame any owner or designer for not being the one to develop them. There's room to explore for anyone willing to invest and risk, though given the cost of labor, permitting, land and operations, that lower end is contracting as a share of the overall golf economy.

[Jud_T]

I have to admit that, my personal Trump issues aside, it's pretty impressive that he thought to hire someone like Gil for the job (and that Gil took it!).  It'll be very interesting to see how this project turns out and who he hires for future projects.  Hell I might even have to break down and actually play one of his tracks someday.  Particularly if it's on someone else's dime....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad,

Part of the problem, which many don't see, is how do you provide affordable public golf when you just purchased a course for
$ 150,000,000 and are about to invest another $ 200,000,000 ?

$ 350,000,000 and affordable public golf are a contradiction in terms.

[Brad Klein]

Go play Pompano Beach Muni, where a $4m redo (including Norman's fee) results in a golf course with a green fee of $45-$60. In life you learn to chase what you can afford, or what will take you as a suitor. I agree there need to be more affordable layouts that are $25-$50 as well, but I don't begrudge people who chose not to supply it. Having said that, it doesn't mean that anything goes and that just because you target a high-end you are not subject to standards of judgment and criticism. But they have to be appropriate and relevant standards.

[Steve Lapper]

Let's also not forget Ferry Point.

There, Donald won't own the course (NYC does), but his management will be the prime determinant of schedule, use and availability to worthy economically-sensitve golfers. My little birdie (very reliable) tells me his people have already made overtures to local Bronx schools and community centers about creating golf programs for disadvantage local youth. IMO, that counts as positively additive to the game. To do this, without arm-bending from the city and before the course opening, signals he's interested in helping grow the game.

Jud,

   It's nice to see you approach this with a more balanced and open mind.  ;DThe guy's public persona and his contribution to the game are very different.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Brad,

I'm surprised that no journalist has challenged Trump on his assertions that his course in West Palm is  "#1 in Florida."  GD rates it #10. GW  does not include in the Top 100 Modern.

Trump did it again on Morning Drive this morning:


http://www.golfchannel.com/media/morning-drive-donald-trump-interview-030813/

[Tommy Naccarato]

Steve,
I look at things a bit differently when it comes to Donald Trump. One of them is who he is and where has the same presence that is no different then Don King had for Boxing. They do funny stuff with their hair and make all sorts of outlandish statements to the point of pure comedy; they want you to take them seriously, but they know people are really laughing.  These personas achieve themselves fame and fortune, and they love the fact that its all about them and most--their interests of what they're promoting, because simply, its "The Show", "Come inside! Come inside!" (Thank you Peter Sinfield and ELP!)

They're Ringleaders in the Circus: Don King boxing and Donald Trump Real Estate and now golf courses. But the fact is that many of us don't believe in what they are saying, they are still delivering. Somebody is wanting to pay to be a part of it.