2013 Golfweek Rankings Now Available...

[astavrides]

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[John Kavanaugh]

Brad,

Could we at least know the names of the raters who you do not charge the $250 fee or require training?  They at least deserve our respect as they have gained yours. 

[Paul OConnor]

I know a guy at Olympia Fields who is a great player and gregarious guy who just has no interest in seeing what is outside his club despite being offered a rater position on a panel.                        

Who offers a guy like that a place on a panel? Someone with zero interest in any course other than his own? Because he's gregarious and a good player? Sounds like he would be a liability to any magazine he rates for.

Yes, it must really suck for that guy, playing all those 3 hour rounds on a US Open course.  I'm sure he would be much happier playing and rating Ravisloe, Kankakee Elks, Thunderhawk, and Cantigny, because he might get comped. 

[Niall Hay]

 The Next 100-Classic and Next-100 Modern are both now posted.

How are the Next 100 ratings calculated? How does a course qualify for the list? How does one that was on the list last year drop off?

[Mark Saltzman]

 The Next 100-Classic and Next-100 Modern are both now posted.

How are the Next 100 ratings calculated? How does a course qualify for the list? How does one that was on the list last year drop off?

I believe the exact same way the top-100 are calculated except the threshold for minimum number of votes is lower.

Qualify for the list? A high enough average rating.

Drop off the list? Rating was not among the top-200 highest.  Sorry to see Orchard Lake go.

[Matthew Petersen]

What's so great about Troon North these days? With all the housing and not really anything that special about the designs, both courses are far closer to the bottom of my AZ list than the top. Quintero wouldn't be anywhere close to my #2, but it would be well ahead of either course at TN.

I think the gap between #1 and #2 for AZ public golf is pretty large, no matter what comes in at #2. For me its Dove Mountain.

Agree with you about TN and Quintero...esp TN.  Although I think I like Quintero more than most here.

While I like Saguaro a lot I think it's significantly overrated by many (as has been debated here a bit before). Really good but really not great- esp compared to many of CCs other offerings. Just too many ho-hum holes and flaws to elevate it to all-world status, IMO.

Haven't played Dove but I would put Southern Dunes and VV just behind WS for publics in the Phoenix area.

Chris and Andy and Jeff,

I have found more to like at Quintero pretty much every time out. Didn't think much of it at all the first time round, but I suppose it was a victim of high expectations. Still, I can't imagine it at #2 on the list.

I don't understand the complaints about TN. Fair enough, I wasn't out there before the housing, but if that's housing that you complain about ... well, clearly you play many nicer tracks than me. Sure, the complete lack of homes at Dove Mountain and WeKoPa (mostly at Quintero) is nice, but the homes at TN don't bother me any more than those at Pebble beach (and I'd argue they're even less in play). Meanwhile, I see a nice set of pretty and strategically interesting holes. Granted Weiskopf's flat greens bother me less than most people, but then I'm a horrible putter.

Also, even with it as my #1, I'm not sure I'd argue that Saguaro is "great." But it is very very good and for public courses in Arizona, it's right at the top for me.

[Niall Hay]

 The Next 100-Classic and Next-100 Modern are both now posted.

How are the Next 100 ratings calculated? How does a course qualify for the list? How does one that was on the list last year drop off?

I believe the exact same way the top-100 are calculated except the threshold for minimum number of votes is lower.

What are the minimums? For top 100 and Next 100.

[Mark Saltzman]

 The Next 100-Classic and Next-100 Modern are both now posted.

How are the Next 100 ratings calculated? How does a course qualify for the list? How does one that was on the list last year drop off?

I believe the exact same way the top-100 are calculated except the threshold for minimum number of votes is lower.

What are the minimums? For top 100 and Next 100.

I think 15 and 10.  Not sure though.

[Brad Klein]

15/12

[Andy Troeger]

Matthew,
My biggest criticism of Troon North isn't the housing--although that's up there too. Its the narrow playing corridors--which seems to be a problem frequently in the desert. My personal opinion is that desert courses need more width than most areas because of the penalty for missing the fairway (or at least the grassed areas). I've played about 40-45 courses in AZ and both courses at Troon North are in the bottom 5-10.

[Sean Leary]

Matthew,
My biggest criticism of Troon North isn't the housing--although that's up there too. Its the narrow playing corridors--which seems to be a problem frequently in the desert. My personal opinion is that desert courses need more width than most areas because of the penalty for missing the fairway (or at least the grassed areas). I've played about 40-45 courses in AZ and both courses at Troon North are in the bottom 5-10.

Andy,

Do you think that desert courses look narrower than they play due to the stark color contrast.? I have always felt that way.

[Andy Troeger]

Sean,
I wouldn't have said that--a lot of it depends on whether the courses have rough or not. I've played Stone Eagle and The Quarry at La Quinta the last two days and both of them had pretty significant width compared to a lot of the AZ courses I've seen.

There are some narrow courses in other parts of the country/world too, but if you can recover from the stuff off the fairway then I don't see it as being that big of a deal.

[Chris DeNigris]

Matthew,
My biggest criticism of Troon North isn't the housing--although that's up there too. Its the narrow playing corridors--which seems to be a problem frequently in the desert. My personal opinion is that desert courses need more width than most areas because of the penalty for missing the fairway (or at least the grassed areas). I've played about 40-45 courses in AZ and both courses at Troon North are in the bottom 5-10.

Andy,

Do you think that desert courses look narrower than they play due to the stark color contrast.? I have always felt that way.

I think this is true and with it the intimidation factor, mostly on the tee for the mid and higher handicappers. I don't think the fairway widths are significantly tighter at TN but they just seem that way...and consequently they play that way too. I still think they are A list courses but for me they're closer to the bottom of the A list than the top.

[Adam Clayman]

Since water is the big issue in the desert, wider can, and should, only be as a result of angles. That's one of the primary reasons Desert Forest is such a masterpiece. Black Mesa also incorporates this concept.

Recovery from the surrounds in the desert, is important and usually amplifies the difference between thoughtful design and most 'commercial' courses..  

[Sean Leary]

Sean,
I wouldn't have said that--a lot of it depends on whether the courses have rough or not. I've played Stone Eagle and The Quarry at La Quinta the last two days and both of them had pretty significant width compared to a lot of the AZ courses I've seen.

There are some narrow courses in other parts of the country/world too, but if you can recover from the stuff off the fairway then I don't see it as being that big of a deal.

Fair enough.  I play Desert Forest in 2 weeks so I am prepared to eat my words.

[Andy Troeger]

Since water is the big issue in the desert, wider can, and should, only be as a result of angles. That's one of the primary reasons Desert Forest is such a masterpiece. Black Mesa also incorporates this concept.

Recovery from the surrounds in the desert, is important and usually amplifies the difference between thoughtful design and most 'commercial' courses..  

Not so sure I agree with the bottom part Adam--some courses just spend more money to clear out the desert surrounds than others. Unfortunately there is a trade-off between aesthetics from a natural looking desert with plenty of flora, and the cleared out stuff that's easy to play from but looks odd. It would be nice if your statement were true, but from the courses I've seen its hit and miss at best. Black Mesa is one of the few where it does happen that way.

If there's not enough width to get around without most golfers losing a fair number of balls, then angles and options only go so far to me. I'm going to be getting another crack at Desert Forest shortly--I'm certainly open to seeing what I didn't see the first time!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Metedeconk & Stanwich better than Pine Tree ?

Liberty National better than..............................?

[Paul Richards]

The Next 100 Modern is now posted online:

http://golfweek.com/news/2013/mar/07/2013-golfweeks-best-courses-next-100-modern/

[Greg Tallman]

Sean,
I wouldn't have said that--a lot of it depends on whether the courses have rough or not. I've played Stone Eagle and The Quarry at La Quinta the last two days and both of them had pretty significant width compared to a lot of the AZ courses I've seen.

There are some narrow courses in other parts of the country/world too, but if you can recover from the stuff off the fairway then I don't see it as being that big of a deal.

Fair enough.  I play Desert Forest in 2 weeks so I am prepared to eat my words.

Keep your expectations in check as Troon's cookie cutter maintenance program has pretty much killed the greens to the point they will be shutting down in May to rebuild all greens (and bunkers/surrounds). Treating push up greens like USGA spec greens has a rather predicatble result.

[Matthew Petersen]

Matthew,
My biggest criticism of Troon North isn't the housing--although that's up there too. Its the narrow playing corridors--which seems to be a problem frequently in the desert. My personal opinion is that desert courses need more width than most areas because of the penalty for missing the fairway (or at least the grassed areas). I've played about 40-45 courses in AZ and both courses at Troon North are in the bottom 5-10.

I agree overall, width is important in the desert, but ... I'm comparing courses in Arizona only, so it's all relative. I feel like TN is wider than WeKoPa Cholla and probably The Boulders. It's not a wide course, but I don't think most of the holes are especially narrow compared to most of the others around.

The width is one of the main things that makes Saguaro such a pleasure to play, and why it is my #1. Ultimately, the courses in the state that aren't "desert style' just don't measure up, even given the constraints of desert golf.

[Jud_T]

Haven't played TN, but isn't the real issue the limitations on the allowed acreage of irrigated turf (90?)?  In addition, as mentioned elsewhere previously, isn't much of this often spent on driving ranges, putting greens and other non-core course areas?  Seems to me that it's a real test of a GCA and client's priorities to work within these limitations yet produce something playable and special.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sean,
I wouldn't have said that--a lot of it depends on whether the courses have rough or not. I've played Stone Eagle and The Quarry at La Quinta the last two days and both of them had pretty significant width compared to a lot of the AZ courses I've seen.

There are some narrow courses in other parts of the country/world too, but if you can recover from the stuff off the fairway then I don't see it as being that big of a deal.

Fair enough.  I play Desert Forest in 2 weeks so I am prepared to eat my words.

Keep your expectations in check as Troon's cookie cutter maintenance program has pretty much killed the greens to the point they will be shutting down in May to rebuild all greens (and bunkers/surrounds). Treating push up greens like USGA spec greens has a rather predicatble result.

Greg:

I haven't been to TN in a couple of years, but the last time I was out there I was amazed at how pockmarked the greens appeared.  I chalked it up to volume of play (most of it by folks who didn't know better or just didn't give a crap), but it sounds like there's more to the story.

Sven

[Greg Tallman]

Sean,
I wouldn't have said that--a lot of it depends on whether the courses have rough or not. I've played Stone Eagle and The Quarry at La Quinta the last two days and both of them had pretty significant width compared to a lot of the AZ courses I've seen.

There are some narrow courses in other parts of the country/world too, but if you can recover from the stuff off the fairway then I don't see it as being that big of a deal.

Fair enough.  I play Desert Forest in 2 weeks so I am prepared to eat my words.

Keep your expectations in check as Troon's cookie cutter maintenance program has pretty much killed the greens to the point they will be shutting down in May to rebuild all greens (and bunkers/surrounds). Treating push up greens like USGA spec greens has a rather predicatble result.

Greg:

I haven't been to TN in a couple of years, but the last time I was out there I was amazed at how pockmarked the greens appeared.  I chalked it up to volume of play (most of it by folks who didn't know better or just didn't give a crap), but it sounds like there's more to the story.

Sven

TN?

I was talking about Desert Forest

[Matthew Petersen]

Haven't played TN, but isn't the real issue the limitations on the allowed acreage of irrigated turf (90?)?  In addition, as mentioned elsewhere previously, isn't much of this often spent on driving ranges, putting greens and other non-core course areas?  Seems to me that it's a real test of a GCA and client's priorities to work within these limitations yet produce something playable and special.

I suppose, but again that's a limitation on all courses, and maybe less so on Troon North than on others (two courses at the facility would mean they could essentially split the impact of the range, right?). Anyway, I really don't think it's any narrower than most of the other desert courses out here. In fact, part of the reason the courses at The Boulders get slightly lower marks from me is that they feel so tight as compared to pretty much anything on the lost above it

[Andy Troeger]

The Boulders courses are almost as overrated and forgettable as Troon North.

The good news in AZ is that lower priced courses like Longbow and Vista Verde are also more pleasant to play. I did not find We-Ko-Pa Cholla to be as narrow as the others, but perhaps that's because I wasn't worried about hitting it through somebody's window.