Greatest in the World. Who belongs in the conversation?

[Jim McCann]

Scott:

Regarding the anathema of contributors nominating courses they haven’t played, I came across this reply a while back in the thread “Re: How many Doak points do you have?” :

There's probably someone out there with more "Doak points" than me, because I have not played nearly all of the courses I rated myself. I have probably only played 60-65% of the courses in the book.

The respondent was none other than the author of the book, The Confidential Guide.

Seems like standards haven’t really improved in the seven years since that post was made... 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Scott:

Regarding the anathema of contributors nominating courses they haven’t played, I came across this reply a while back in the thread “Re: How many Doak points do you have?” :

There's probably someone out there with more "Doak points" than me, because I have not played nearly all of the courses I rated myself. I have probably only played 60-65% of the courses in the book.

The respondent was none other than the author of the book, The Confidential Guide.

Seems like standards haven’t really improved in the seven years since that post was made... 

Ah but Jim - he walked them...

Unlike most, I think you can learn more from walking a course than playing it... Or at the very least you study things that you wouldn't if you were playing... Doing both multiple times is ideal though - covers all angles...

[Tom_Doak]

Is there any question that Royal Melbourne is the best course in Australia?  Royal County Down in Ireland? The Old Course in Scotland?

There is some question whether Royal County Down is even IN Ireland    much less whether it's better than Ballybunion.

For me, "the best" would come down to St. Andrews, Pine Valley and Royal Melbourne. 

[Thomas Dai]

Royal Melbourne has been mentioned in this thread several times.

I understand that there are two RM courses and that for significant events a composite of both courses is used, so which RM course exactly is being suggested as one of the 'Greatest in the World'?

All the best.

[jonathan_becker]

Royal Melbourne has been mentioned in this thread several times.

I understand that there are two RM courses and that for significant events a composite of both courses is used, so which RM course exactly is being suggested as one of the 'Greatest in the World'?

All the best.

The West does just fine by itself.  Twelve of the holes on the Composite are from the West and I would assume a mention of RM=West.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Why not Merion?  Excepting how it's being prepared for the Open, I'd put its everyday presentation in the mix.  It has a world-class long holes and short holes of all par varieties.  It has a unique routing (no par 5's after #4) and a flow that I've yet to experience elsewhere.  What holds it back from being in this conversation?

[jonathan_becker]

Why not Merion?  Excepting how it's being prepared for the Open, I'd put its everyday presentation in the mix.  It has a world-class long holes and short holes of all par varieties.  It has a unique routing (no par 5's after #4) and a flow that I've yet to experience elsewhere.  What holds it back from being in this conversation?

It's not built on sand. 

I know Oakmont isn't on sand and it was mentioned in the initial post as one of the candidates, but as great as Oakmont is it shouldn't be included and not being on sand is part of it.

[Sean Leary]

To me, Pine Valley stands above the rest by a pretty good margin. Most people I know that have played it would agree. Shinnecock, CPC, and RCD would be the next level (maybe TOC but I have only played it once so can't tell). Haven't played RM or Sand Hills but they are likely there as well.

[Bill McKinley]

Gents!

Thanks for your replies and insight. I will stand by my initial list, including Oakmont. I do recognize that most of the other courses mentioned are built on sand and I actually didn't realize that until Jonathan pointed it out a couple posts ago.

As for Oakmont, please tell me where the weak spots are that would hold it back from not being in the conversation. Is it because it's too hard? Baahh! That didn't stop PV from being ranked at the top. Not next to a large body of water? I just don't see a weak spot at Oakmont. But my mind isn't made up. 

As for Merion not being in the conversation, I'm not the best person to ask on that. I love that golf course. But I would say there are a couple holes that are less than brilliant, like maybe 2, 6, 14 (with the weird mound to the left of the green) that hold it back. But in my option it's definitely in that next group of great courses.

[jonathan_becker]

Bill,

Oakmont is one of the best courses in the world and has what some consider the best greens in golf.  It's a phenomenal place and I'm not saying there are weak spots, but in my opinion, what holds it back from being considered in the "cream of the crop" grouping, as I like to call it, is a general lack of directional choices off the tees.  My problem is that most of the holes don't move one way or the other and the player really isn't rewarded with a better angle for the approach by being on one side of the fw vs the other.  Holes 2, 4, 12, and most definitely 17 have some strategy choices off the tees as those holes move a little, but the rest of the holes do not give the player a "true" reward with a definite preferred angle.  Playing out of the fw is key and trying to be a hero by playing towards one side of the fw vs the other will result in a long day as far as I'm concerned.  Overall, there just isn't enough of a reward by trying to be aggressive off the tee because the width isn't there and hence, the overall lack of angles.  I do give Oakmont credit though in that they have an idea of how they want their course to be presented and they do it very well.

Now, I just played RMW last month, and that golf course is 100% about strategy off the tees and the player is rewarded extremely well for challenging the inside of the doglegs and challenging fw bunkers when present.  RMW has so much width and choices involved with the tee shots that the distances on the approaches can be HUGE depending on the line one takes off the tee.  Plus, RMW might have the finest greens for variety that I've ever played.  AND it's built on sand  .  It has everything one could want in a golf course and is clearly one of the world's most elite 18 holes than can be enjoyed by all levels of players.  It's a definite challenge and the player doesn't have to worry about striping it all day long to be in play.

[Mark Saltzman]

Becker, nice post.

[Tim Leahy]

Pebble Beach has to be in the top 10 without a doubt. The history and notoriety alone make it a great golf course. Pebble Beach is the St. Andrews of North America. Ask a non-golfer in North America what the greatest golf course in the world is and the vast majority would say Pebble Beach. I would bet that Pebble Beach is the most photographed golf course in the world. The ocean holes at Pebble are second to none.

[Bill McKinley]

Jonathan,

As I said, my mind isn't made up. I would definitely agree with that assessment that their aren't many options or choices to be made off the tee at Oakmont. I would without a doubt call that a weak spot. As you mentioned there are some holes that do make you think or provide a heroic choice, but definitely not the majority. Solid post indeed.

[Kenny Baer]

Pebble Beach has to be in the top 10 without a doubt. The history and notoriety alone make it a great golf course. Pebble Beach is the St. Andrews of North America. Ask a non-golfer in North America what the greatest golf course in the world is and the vast majority would say Pebble Beach. I would bet that Pebble Beach is the most photographed golf course in the world. The ocean holes at Pebble are second to none.

I just got back from Pebble and agree wholeheartedly. The stretch of 2-10 and 17-18 are as good or better than anywhere else in the world.  period. It is magical.

[Sean_A]

I arguably haven't seen any cream of croppers, but of the courses I played which I think one shouldn't miss for any reason, Merion stands out the most.  That said, I thought the rough was dopey and held Merion back from being even better and I am told that situation has gotten worse.  I wouldn't be surprised that if I saw the course again it would drop in my estimation.


Ciao 

[jonathan_becker]

Bill,

Of the courses you initially listed, I've played Shinnecock, RMW, and walked NGLA.  For my own personal groupings I would put all of those courses in a 1A grouping, the best of the best.  Oakmont and Merion, I've played both, and would put them in a 1B grouping just below the top grouping.

[Michael George]

If Oakmont was built today, where would it be in your rankings?  That means it does not have the history nor one of the greatest clubhouses in the world.  Just analyze the golf course itself, nothing else.  Those other factors at Oakmont are off the charts so it is not easy to separate them.  Plus, the course certainly tests every facet of your game as completely as any course in the world.  However, do you "enjoy" the golf course more than Sand Hills?  How about any of the Bandon courses? 

I find discussion of Oakmont on this site interesting because it receives universal praise from a group that loves the elements of "strategy" and "fun".  We talk at length about alternate routes to play holes and risk/reward and exciting and unique shots.  As Jonathan indicates above, those elements are not in abundance at Oakmont.  I would argue in terms of architecture, it is much more RTJ than Mackenzie or Ross.  Yet, RTJ gets routinely panned on this site. 

[Thomas Dai]

There's a great line just posted by Michael - 'Just analyze the golf course itself, nothing else.'

In a different post recently I used the phrase 'it's the view not the course' about a certain 2-course location on the west coast of Scotland which has hosted The Open a few times and has a smart hotel on a hill overlooking the sea and two the courses and from which you can see an island famous for quarrying curling stones. Yip, the Ailsa at Turnberry. Great location? Yes. Great views? Yes. Great course? Um?

Now, consider the Championship Course at Carnoustie. Great historic Open venue? Yes. Course tough as old boots? Yes. Great Location? Um. Great views? No way!

If you 'just analyze the golf course itself, nothing else', and you picked up the Ailsa course at Turnberry and dropped it next to the railway line in the wee grey town of Carnoustie, would many people visit there to play it? Um, I don't think so somehow.

On the other hand, if you took the Championship Course at Carnoustie, picked it up and dropped it on Turnberry's stunning location on the west coast of SCotland golfers would flock there, like flies to a dung heap IMO.

Whilst the overall ambience of the club is an essential element, and this includes all kinds of factors including the location, clubhouse, facilities, views, terrain, history, PR friendliness, lay-out, designer, what tournaments/championships has it hosted, if you adopt the criteria of 'Just analyze the golf course itself, nothing else' then I suggest you might achieve a different outcome in terms of 'greatness'.

Hence there are only two 'greats' for me in the UK, namely Muirfield and Carnoustie - the other Open venues and other premier UK courses are IMO in a tier below these two - perhaps one of the heath land courses west of London might make it three in my top tier but I can't include in my list somewhere I haven't (yet) played.

All the best.

[Bill McKinley]

Michael,

Excellent question. But I find history and tradition to be one of the best things about golf courses. I find it amazing to think about the foresight that the golden age architects had to create their golf courses. As for the one in question here, Oakmont, it has an identity and it has stuck to it. It has actually went back to it, with all of the tree removal/restoration work over the past decade. The golf course itself is great. It has some of the most interesting greens and certainly tries to be as firm and fast as it can be. It's the golf course that makes the impression, not the views or the location. As for the history, yes it adds to it, but I like that and I don't hold it against Oakmont for having a great history. What is The Old Course without its history? A great course, yes, but would it be thought of in such high regard without it?

I think you've said to before its all about the whole experience. And I agree with that. And to me, the Oakmont experience is tremendous. The locker room, the clubhouse, if you're lucky enough to get in the SWAT room, and of course the golf course. I have certainly enjoyed my rounds at Oakmont, but I hope to be able to compare it with a round at Sand Hills some time. And I have a sneaking suspension that it will compare quite favorably, history and all 

[Michael George]

Bill:

I agree with everything that you wrote.  I judge the total experience of a place far more then just the golf course.  Hell, I belong to a place where the experience/club is better than the golf course.  

I just asked the question so that there  can be an honest assessment of why people love, like or don't like certain places.  
I absolutely love the entire package of Oakmont.  Best clubhouse I have ever been in.  It is just surreal being at the place.  But I don't kid myself in the cloud of its history and incredible ambience, it is a penal golf course that provides little "strategy" or "fun".  It is the ultimate test of every facet of your game and my guess is that is exactly where the members want it. 

However, there simply are not a lot of ways to play that golf course.  Hit it in the fairway or you are screwed.  Hit it on the green or you are screwed.  Lag putt or you are screwed.    As I said to a member who I know, I don't want to go to Oakmont with a faid or draw.   I either want to hit it straight or have a major slice or hook because being 10 yards off is "a shot irrevocably lost", just as Oakmont wants it.
 

[Chip Gaskins]

Pine Valley
Shinnecock Hills
Royal Melbourne
Royal County Down
Barnbougle Dunes

Royal Melbourne wins, kind of easily.  It has width, strategy, green complexes, etc.

Pine Valley is the ultimate term paper where you brought together the best of the best.
Shinnecock is the greatest tee shot course, but the green complexes aren't as good as RM, PV, RCD,

But Royal Melbourne is the best piece of ground, the best routing, the best use of hazards, totally best green complexes, simply the best on the earth.

[Mike Hendren]

I have walked Cypress Point Club (a single gallery for Messrs. Cirba, Childs, Duran and Huckaby back in the day) and have had the good fortune to play it with my pal Brian Gracely (yet another NLE poster).  However, every time someone on this site starts a top list thread and I consider CPC's place it drops a notch.  I would not have it in the mix of Greatest in the World.  At least not my world.  And I can't help but wonder if it's (egad) "over-rated." 

The stretch from 1 through 6 isn't that much better than Spyglass, is it?  Sure, I know you can look back down the 5th fairway and not see a single bunker, but since when is that a criterion for greatness?  The 10th and 11th are mere fillers and rather pedestrian.  Perhaps the bunkers in the trees on 17 are stupid and the right hand side of the fairway is irrelevant?   You know about the 18th. 

Why am I so very wrong?

Bogey

[Adam Clayman]

Why am I so very wrong?

Michael, One way you could be wrong is that golf courses should be evaluated on their whole. Not by separating their parts. CPC's journey is a variety filled adventure that accentuates nature's infinite variety. The Dr.'s use of land formations to guide one through this journey, are rare, and unique to it's specific locale.

[Mike Hendren]

Why am I so very wrong?

Michael, One way you could be wrong is that golf courses should be evaluated on their whole. Not by separating their parts. CPC's journey is a variety filled adventure that accentuates nature's infinite variety. The Dr.'s use of land formations to guide one through this journey, are rare, and unique to it's specific locale.

Greetings Adam!

Good point, in which case one might argue that Bandon Trails is highly underrated.

Mike

[Bill McKinley]

Michael H,

So are you saying that every time you reflect on your round/ time at Cypress Point that you remember it less fondly? I find that fascinating because every time I talk to friends of mine that have play CPC they have the exact opposite reaction. Maybe you look at it with a critical eye and others are just star struck with the experience? I'm sure you still look back with fond memories, but what other places have you been that has caused you to slot Cypress down a notch or two?

Thanks!