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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2013, 11:12:51 AM »
Patrick,

Now that you are back from your dinner, I would like to say that you have a thoughtful and interesting thread going here.
Unfortunately, I think I will never understand why you demean yourself and your thread by getting into name calling.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2013, 11:26:25 AM »
In an effort to get away from the name-calling, I'll simply say that the concept doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So, we're going to build up features for the shorter golfer to interface with ... which to me sounds like you're building bunkers or other kinds of trouble that will be in play for the guy who might hit it 200 if he really rips it. So now not only is he 100 yards shorter than people he might be playing with, but his 180yd drive might find trouble ... which means the trouble in play for the guy who hits it 200 off the tee is now very much in play for his second shot.

I know and play with quite a few people who hit their drives 180-200. None of them lament not being able to reach a hazard off the tee.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the need for
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2013, 11:38:18 AM »
Pat, how does the concept of a single tee help alleviate the distance issue?

Jud,

You can't look at the issue contemporaneously.
You have to go back and view the issue from the perspective of how the distance issue would have been handled had tees not been moved back in response to increased distances.

When hi tech increased distance, course responded by adding length.
Result ?   No perception or ground swell recognition of a distance problem.
Hi tech produces more distance, clubs add more yardage.  Result ?  No recognition of a distance problem.
And this process repeats itself for 60+ years.
If instead, tees were essentially fixed, I think recognition would have occurred sooner and that the USGA would have responded sooner and better.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.


It seems pretty obvious that long hitters have even more of an advantage if shorter hitters can't move up a tee or two.
There would be NO advantage as handicaps would automatically adjust and account for that dynamic


It also is obvious that, unless that single tee is at about 6800 yards or more, our courses are still going to be obsolete for the long hitter.

Only in the context that hi tech allowed distance to get out of control.
Ask yourself, if distance was marginally static circa 1950, would you have that problem ?


Of course, if the tee is 6800+, that makes the course a pretty big slog for shorter hitters.

Only in the context of "par"
If a course played from 6,800 and if golfer "A" scores 90 on average and another 75 on average, then golfer "A" gets 15 shots.


You're right that handicaps would work out the scoring difference. Your predictions of improved comradery and decreased maintenance costs are interesting, though I'm still skeptical. But having a single teeing ground creates a BIG gap in enjoyment, particularly with regards to very high handicappers who might only drive it 150 yards or so.

Not really.
Remember you're thinking in terms of the way current courses are designed, not how one tee courses would be designed in the body of the hole.

Today, with multiple tees, most golfers interface with the same DZ.  the same features/hazards.
In that situation, the poor golfer is confronted with features/hazards meant to challenge the better golfer.
In other words, multiple tees create a disparity in the challenge inversely proportional to the diverse abilities.

Under my premise, the lesser golfer would interface with more benign features/hazards, features/hazards more commensurate with their ability to recover and advance.


The simple answer is that those players should learn to hit it farther, but I think one of the great things about our game is its ability to accommodate people with wide-ranging abilities who can still have fun, even if they shoot a huge number or don't keep score at all.
My method does that better than the current method


I play with those players from time to time, and I can't imagine there are many who would enjoy taking 50+ full swings with power clubs. And honestly, it doesn't sound like much fun to me either.

That's because you haven't fully understood the concept and gradation of the features/hazards the lessor player would interface with


Again, I'm not saying "Everyone has the right to hit greens in regulation or protect their ego!" But I do think golf is a better game when everyone has a right to enjoying themselves and seeing variation in the shots they hit.


So, for hundreds of years, as golf enjoyed an increase in popularity, golfers didn't enjoy themselves ?

No, the problem is "par", "fairness" and "ego"


And seeing as golf courses are businesses, I would say the lack of examples of any courses that still use the old method of a single teeing ground is pretty good proof that the idea is unpopular.

You could say the same thing about all those great bunkers and quirky features that have been eliminated over the years.
All victims of "par", "fairness" and "ego"


To paraphrase what you said yourself in a few anchoring threads, businesspeople running golf courses wouldn't build more tees than one if it didn't work.

You're not thinking in a global sense, you're confining your thinking to the configuration of courses today, where the body of the hole has remained static, designed for one golfer and one golfer only, with the tees being the variable that accommodates the broad spectrum of golfer.

Close your eyes Luke, let the "force"guide you ;D


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the need for
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2013, 11:40:22 AM »
Patrick,

Now that you are back from your dinner, I would like to say that you have a thoughtful and interesting thread going here.
Unfortunately, I think I will never understand why you demean yourself and your thread by getting into name calling.

It's called counter punching.
Jeff has a history of initiating his hissy fits and I merely responded.
But, let's get back to discussing the concept



Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2013, 12:00:29 PM »
In an effort to get away from the name-calling, I'll simply say that the concept doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So, we're going to build up features for the shorter golfer to interface with ... which to me sounds like you're building bunkers or other kinds of trouble that will be in play for the guy who might hit it 200 if he really rips it. So now not only is he 100 yards shorter than people he might be playing with, but his 180yd drive might find trouble ... which means the trouble in play for the guy who hits it 200 off the tee is now very much in play for his second shot.

I know and play with quite a few people who hit their drives 180-200. None of them lament not being able to reach a hazard off the tee.

Aren't there lots of features at the old course that aren't in play for the best players, but come into play for weaker players?
When, I suggested using a random number generator to locate hazards on a course, Tom D's only objection was that you want to place bunkers in locations in the landscape that make sense, otherwise he endorsed the idea. I guess that means he will not be producing any of those volcano style bunkers. ;)

It seems to me that without some difficulties on the course you might as well be picking targets and counting up strokes on a driving range. My personal favorite difficulty is widely varying terrain. Sahara at Old MacDonald stands out for me as an example of how good a hole can be with this kind of difficulty. When you add bunkers, you get a challenge such as bottle at Old MacDonald. Golf would be a lesser game without such difficulties.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2013, 12:02:30 PM »
Patrick,

Now that you are back from your dinner, I would like to say that you have a thoughtful and interesting thread going here.
Unfortunately, I think I will never understand why you demean yourself and your thread by getting into name calling.

It's called counter punching.
Jeff has a history of initiating his hissy fits and I merely responded.
But, let's get back to discussing the concept



I'm sorry, but I have a different word for it than counter punching.
 :(
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2013, 12:05:18 PM »
In an effort to get away from the name-calling, I'll simply say that the concept doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So, we're going to build up features for the shorter golfer to interface with ... which to me sounds like you're building bunkers or other kinds of trouble that will be in play for the guy who might hit it 200 if he really rips it. So now not only is he 100 yards shorter than people he might be playing with, but his 180yd drive might find trouble ... which means the trouble in play for the guy who hits it 200 off the tee is now very much in play for his second shot.

I know and play with quite a few people who hit their drives 180-200. None of them lament not being able to reach a hazard off the tee.

Aren't there lots of features at the old course that aren't in play for the best players, but come into play for weaker players?
When, I suggested using a random number generator to locate hazards on a course, Tom D's only objection was that you want to place bunkers in locations in the landscape that make sense, otherwise he endorsed the idea. I guess that means he will not be producing any of those volcano style bunkers. ;)

It seems to me that without some difficulties on the course you might as well be picking targets and counting up strokes on a driving range. My personal favorite difficulty is widely varying terrain. Sahara at Old MacDonald stands out for me as an example of how good a hole can be with this kind of difficulty. When you add bunkers, you get a challenge such as bottle at Old MacDonald. Golf would be a lesser game without such difficulties.


If every course could be as flexible and interesting as TOC ...

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the need for
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2013, 12:10:36 PM »
In an effort to get away from the name-calling, I'll simply say that the concept doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So, we're going to build up features for the shorter golfer to interface with ... which to me sounds like you're building bunkers or other kinds of trouble that will be in play for the guy who might hit it 200 if he really rips it. So now not only is he 100 yards shorter than people he might be playing with, but his 180yd drive might find trouble ... which means the trouble in play for the guy who hits it 200 off the tee is now very much in play for his second shot.

I know and play with quite a few people who hit their drives 180-200. None of them lament not being able to reach a hazard off the tee.


Mathew,

You clearly don't get it.

Currently, through the aid of multiple tees you have no problem with the poor player confronting a bunker designed for the better player.

So why would you object to the poorer player confronting a more benign bunker ?

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2013, 01:35:31 PM »
We're going to reduce maintenance costs by providing bunkers for every level of golfer?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2013, 01:45:02 PM »
Peter Mucci  ;D,

Can you clarify what this topic is about? Which of the following are you asking:

1. Is the use of more than one teeing zone the result of modern technology's contribution to variation in player skill coupled with the par-driven ego of golfers? (Answer: Perhaps to a small extent but certainly not exclusively)

2. Is it possible to design a course with one teeing zone per hole but multiple landing zones challenged by hazards that provide an elasticity in the challenge to players with different abilities and creating interest for everyone? (Answer: Probably, and it'd be really cool to talk about how)

3. Should the course suggested in Q2 become the standard for course design, and would it save the game from golfers' egos and equipment? (Answer: No)

Your tense and phrasing in previous posts made it sound like you were asking Q3. I'd be pretty excited to discuss Q2. But if I didn't know better, I'd think your most recent post addressed to Jud but quoting me is a feeble attempt to evade obvious flaws in your premise for Q3 by changing the tense and context of the discussion to address Q1.

Still, can you tell me more about how the 18th at NGLA is interesting for any player from any tee, and any other holes that accomplish the same that could lead to a conclusion that 18 such holes could be built on a single course? I've never played NGLA, but it sounds cool and I love the idea (for ONE course, though I don't think it should be the standard).
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2013, 01:55:47 PM »
Patrick,

So politely disagreeing with you gets one called a douche bag?  Sorry, but you're the prick here.  Good bye.

That wasn't "politely" disagreeing and you know it.
If you were politely disagreeing with me you would have stuck to the subject matter instead of personalizing it.
But, you were true to your feminine side and returned to your habitual form.
And, as is typical, you start something, get your nose bloodied and run away.
No surprise there


so let's see here.

You call others rigid and other things.

I call you just as rigid in your ideas.

You call me whiny, and a douche bag.

And I had the hissy fit?

I think or hope sane minds will prevail here.

As per the last poster, while there is some germ of a discussion thought there (and I did post twice some counter thoughts, thankfully without any green type from you, but also no rational response) overall I don't think its practical from my perspective.

Not meant to be an insult, however, your perspective seems to come from the limited view of exclusive private clubs you frequent (I am jealous!) I design for mid level clubs and public courses.  I believe that you might get away with your concept at clubs you frequent.  I don't think I could get away with designing like that for the clients I work for.

Nor do I think I should.  While we may lament the passing of golf as a male only/dominated game, or the passing of the private club as the dominant form of golf, or lament the length in the game today, in either case, I design for the here and now, not as an ode to the past, or to try to force us back to the past, which for some is a lost memory, and for others really has some unpleasant memories.

Again, I ask the question, why should anyone pay $45 or whatever to play golf, and get shoe horned onto a particular course length by the gca or owner?  How is it ego to concede that you might have more fun playing at a lesser yardage more in tune with your game?  Why would anyone want to force anyone else to play at a yardage that includes at least one "middle shot" per most holes, which we generally agree is the dullest shot in golf?  How does that make the game more fun?

Again, I agree with you that camaraderie is an if not the most important part of golf.  As I said, I know it happens on the course all the time, without us forcing it via tee design.

Cheers.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2013, 02:23:29 PM »
...
Again, I ask the question, why should anyone pay $45 or whatever to play golf, and get shoe horned onto a particular course length by the gca or owner?  How is it ego to concede that you might have more fun playing at a lesser yardage more in tune with your game?  Why would anyone want to force anyone else to play at a yardage that includes at least one "middle shot" per most holes, which we generally agree is the dullest shot in golf?  How does that make the game more fun?
...

Why should anyone pay $45 or whatever to play golf, and walk past 1/3 of the golf course. At least hitting "middle" shots is more fun than walking a cart path or the like. The "dullest" shot in golf is more entertaining than no shots! How does walking and not playing make the game more fun?

What is wrong with a schema of holes such as this
130 155 180 205 230 255 280 305 330 355 380 405 430 455 480 505 530 555 = 6165
W    9I    7I   5I    3I    3W 1W  1/2 1/2  LW SW GW 9I  8I    6I    4I    2I    3W
to allow most all players holes they can reach in 1, 2, or 3? (Club selections were proposed for former website member John K Moore).
What is wrong with this schema that is analogous to Tom D's proposed Olympics course?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the need for
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2013, 02:37:02 PM »
We're going to reduce maintenance costs by providing bunkers for every level of golfer?

You must have missed the word "FEATURES" and the fact that you wouldn't have to construct and maintain five sets of tees and the grass surrounding and leading back to them.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the need for
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2013, 02:42:36 PM »
Patrick,

Now that you are back from your dinner, I would like to say that you have a thoughtful and interesting thread going here.
Unfortunately, I think I will never understand why you demean yourself and your thread by getting into name calling.

It's called counter punching.
Jeff has a history of initiating his hissy fits and I merely responded.
But, let's get back to discussing the concept



I'm sorry, but I have a different word for it than counter punching.

So, once again, your sole purpose for participating on this thread is to divert and disrupt another thread.
Had Jeff stuck to the topic being discussed without personalizing, my response wouldn't have occured.
Go disrupt another thread with your inane babble.

 :(

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2013, 02:52:30 PM »
Patrick,

Now that you are back from your dinner, I would like to say that you have a thoughtful and interesting thread going here.
Unfortunately, I think I will never understand why you demean yourself and your thread by getting into name calling.

It's called counter punching.
Jeff has a history of initiating his hissy fits and I merely responded.
But, let's get back to discussing the concept



I'm sorry, but I have a different word for it than counter punching.

So, once again, your sole purpose for participating on this thread is to divert and disrupt another thread.
Had Jeff stuck to the topic being discussed without personalizing, my response wouldn't have occured.
Go disrupt another thread with your inane babble.

 :(

Which part of I would like to say that you have a thoughtful and interesting thread going here. didn't you understand?

Which part of elucidating what Tom did for his Olympics course design that supports your premise for the thread is diverting and disrupting?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the need for
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2013, 03:08:58 PM »
Patrick,

So politely disagreeing with you gets one called a douche bag?  Sorry, but you're the prick here.  Good bye.

That wasn't "politely" disagreeing and you know it.
If you were politely disagreeing with me you would have stuck to the subject matter instead of personalizing it.
But, you were true to your feminine side and returned to your habitual form.
And, as is typical, you start something, get your nose bloodied and run away.
No surprise there


so let's see here.

You call others rigid and other things.

You can't be that dumb, can you.
By rigid, I meant that they were confining their context to what exists today rather than what would exist with a one tee system.


I call you just as rigid in your ideas.

I don't mind that at all, that's not personalizing anything, it's merely framing my reference points.


You call me whiny, and a douche bag.

Yes, you have a history of being both.


And I had the hissy fit?

Yes


I think or hope sane minds will prevail here.

Then you shouldn't have introduced the personal element as you always do.
Then, you get your nose bloodied and complain.
You can't have it both ways.
This was a good thread until you disrupted it.


As per the last poster, while there is some germ of a discussion thought there (and I did post twice some counter thoughts, thankfully without any green type from you, but also no rational response) overall I don't think its practical from my perspective.

Then say so without personalizing your reply.
As to practicality, we're talking about a premise, a theory first.
The major impediments to practicality are many due primarily to history and the ability to transition, but, that doesn't invalidate the premise.


Not meant to be an insult, however, your perspective seems to come from the limited view of exclusive private clubs you frequent (I am jealous!)

It's got nothing to do with private clubs.
Is TOC private ?
At TOC, often you have to play from a specificed tee/s where the back tees are off limits.
It seems to work well for them, so why not for others ?


I design for mid level clubs and public courses.  I believe that you might get away with your concept at clubs you frequent.  I don't think I could get away with designing like that for the clients I work for.

I never said that the "mindset" would be changed overnight.

But, who would have thought that you could design a world class course absent yardage markers, absent raking bunkers, etc. etc.

Yet, look at Friars Head and Sand Hills.

Rome won't be built in a day, but, think about the concept.

The major impediment to implementing the concept is the I&B and the enormous difference in distance amongst today's golfers.
But, go back to 1950 and instead of adding length to tees to counter advances in distance, think if the inability to add length would have caused the USGA to act sooner ?  It's all related.


Nor do I think I should.  While we may lament the passing of golf as a male only/dominated game, or the passing of the private club as the dominant form of golf, or lament the length in the game today, in either case, I design for the here and now, not as an ode to the past, or to try to force us back to the past, which for some is a lost memory, and for others really has some unpleasant memories.

Jeff, this is a premise, a theory presented for discussion, not a mandate on how you should design your courses.
Why would you think otherwise ?


Again, I ask the question, why should anyone pay $45 or whatever to play golf, and get shoe horned onto a particular course length by the gca or owner?  

They do it at TOC everyday of the week.


How is it ego to concede that you might have more fun playing at a lesser yardage more in tune with your game?  

Again, you don't understand the concept and the hand in glove relationship between one tee and limited distance.
You're not extrapolating, you're looking at the modern quest for distance, due to I&B, and imparting today's game on that limited yardage course.


Why would anyone want to force anyone else to play at a yardage that includes at least one "middle shot" per most holes, which we generally agree is the dullest shot in golf?  How does that make the game more fun?

Clearly, you don't get it.
How does TOC do it ?
The back tees are closed except for medal and special events.
I haven't heard many clamoring for their money back.
Why is that ?

Could it be the random nature of hazards ?  The unique features that different levels of golfers interface with.
Or, that the course played is adequate for all but the greatest players in the world.

How does Augusta do it ?

7.445+ or 6,365 and if they close the Masters tees for any reason, every level of golfer has to play at 6,365.
Yet, I've never heard one complaint.


Again, I agree with you that camaraderie is an if not the most important part of golf.  As I said, I know it happens on the course all the time, without us forcing it via tee design.

By using the word "forcing" you've predisposed yourself, you've erroneously misplaced your perspective.

Are you going to tell me that if you get an invitation to play Augusta that you're going to turn it down or bitch and moan because you have to play the course at 6,365 ?

Or TOC as it's set up for the day ?

There's an inherent selfishness in American golf.

One example is those who want to play the "back" tees, despite their inability to be able to cope with them.
Forget the lost balls and time to play, they want their need to override everyone else's right to enjoy themselves.

I'll guarantee you that if you designed a course with but one teepad of 6,500 to 6,800 even with today's equipment, the average golfer would enjoy themselves immensely.

And, if the I&B was dialed back, even more golfers would enjoy themselves.

Change is difficult.

It took about 100 years to go from one club length to two club lengths.
It takes years to get a club to widen their fairways, or prune and remove their trees.
Decades to restore great features that have been lost, so, this premise, even if embraced, wouldn't take hold for quite some time.

But, it's a premise with merit.

And, opposition to it comes from a natural resistance to change and not being able to think outside the box.

Look at a course like GCGC which had but one tee pad per hole.
Now, it's a par 73 and about 6,900+ from the back.

Would then entire membership not enjoy it from 6,400, 6,600 or 6,800 ?

Some wouldn't, mostly older members where the heroic carries at GCGC can be taxing.
Remember, it can be a very penal course.

The early golfers reveled in difficulty.

Look at Pine Valley and Hollywood from a 1918, 1926 and 1934 perspective.
Look at Mountain Ridge in 1929 at 6,600+ yards

And, look at the equipment those guys played with then.

Were they bigger and stronger or better athletes ?

There's not a doubt in my mind that they were mentally tougher and didn't complain as much about fairness and par.

That's my premise and I'm sticking to it.

Hope that helps.


Cheers.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 03:17:16 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2013, 03:32:35 PM »
GJ Bailey,

I agree its better if the middle tees are aligned closest to the previous green to minimize walking for the vast majority of players, and strive to do so (of course, its been a while since I have routed a new course.....)  But, still, middle shots aren't much fun.

While I didn't respond to TD's survey, I have recently moved up a tee (thanks to Tee if Forward among other things) and find playing 61-6300 yards, with the attendant short and mid iron approaches on most shots to be as much fun as I have had playing golf in years.  As far as I can tell, most have, and more are now taking that approach all the time.  So, your proposed scheme is great....for me.  However, 17% of golfers like to play longer courses, and 25% or so like to play them shorter.  Who am I to say what length those 33% of golfers should play, when it is so easy to allow flexibility for no cost really (when you consider you need to build big tees for the wear they incur anyway?)

Anyway, I can't say it any more clearly than that.  If you disagree, fine.  As Pat suggests, I am not adverse to discussing different ideas.  My last response came after pondering it for a while, and concluding that if one tee and three landing zone challenges is good, maybe three tees and three lz challenges could be even better at providing challenge for every one.

Pat,

I actually put up a couple of responses about the thread.  Of course, you didn't comment on those thoughtfully, choosing to wait until I put back a few demeaning words (rigid) that you had used on others.  You can see where I have respectfully disagreed on some of your premises based on my perspective.

Anyway, I see from your last post that you continue to exhibit a vast double standard between your behavior being acceptable and what is acceptable for others.  Class act, all the way Patrick.

Again, while perhaps not private, TOC and ANGC are at least iconic courses.  People play for reputation alone, for most its a once in a lifetime experience, so I am not sure those examples typify golf in America.

I can agree with you that it would take years of work to change the multiple tee mentality.  I can agree that for long courses, like ANGC (and even TOC) leaving the back tee markers out for daily play makes sense.  Big whup.  Those tees were all added for tournaments specifically, so why not drag them out for only tournament time.  It is a GREAT way for golfers to enjoy those tournament venues without them being a slog.  But, that is already being done at most tournament courses, so what is the point? 

When 60% of golfers play at a preferred distance of 6300 yards anyway, why is my perspective off when I say I would play that length gladly (at an iconic course, or otherwise in my case?)  But, my son would prefer to play longer because he still can!  I presume the percentage of golfers going to those two courses are about the same as those elsewhere, distance wise.  So, I still have no difficulty in accepting there are multiple tees to use that make his, mine, my wife's experience as good as it can be.

You are right, I probably just don't understand your premise, because I believe my chance of seeing a ball roll back is about the same as my chance of seeing the Easter Bunny, so I frame my answers accordingly.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2013, 04:13:20 PM »
In an effort to get away from the name-calling, I'll simply say that the concept doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So, we're going to build up features for the shorter golfer to interface with ... which to me sounds like you're building bunkers or other kinds of trouble that will be in play for the guy who might hit it 200 if he really rips it. So now not only is he 100 yards shorter than people he might be playing with, but his 180yd drive might find trouble ... which means the trouble in play for the guy who hits it 200 off the tee is now very much in play for his second shot.

I know and play with quite a few people who hit their drives 180-200. None of them lament not being able to reach a hazard off the tee.


Mathew,

You clearly don't get it.

Currently, through the aid of multiple tees you have no problem with the poor player confronting a bunker designed for the better player.

So why would you object to the poorer player confronting a more benign bunker ?


Oh, I get it, I simply disagree with you. This is the "discussion." You ask for it all the time, but you never seem to tolerate it much.

On the one hand is a hole of perhaps 420 yards from the back tees with multiple sets in front of that where I might play from the back tees and find a deep fairway bunker 260 yards off the tee and my Dad might play from the whites and find the same bunker with his drive of 190.

On the other hand is, say, a 400 yard hole where my dad and I tee it up in the same spot and we both hit similarly wayward drives. Mine finds the deep bunker 260 from the tee, and his is in a shallower bunker 190 off the tee. There's just a world of difference there. In the second scenario, not only is he compromised for distance, he's still in a hazard, and there's an even more penal bunker just waiting for him about 70 yards ahead of him. How is that better than him just having the option to play a shorter hole that allows him to interface with the same features everyone else does?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the need for
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2013, 04:13:33 PM »

I actually put up a couple of responses about the thread.  Of course, you didn't comment on those thoughtfully, choosing to wait until I put back a few demeaning words (rigid) that you had used on others.  

So you didn't get an immediate response and your reaction is to throw a hissy fit and personalize your comments ?
Where have I seen that before ?  Oh wait, that's SOP for you.


You can see where I have respectfully disagreed on some of your premises based on my perspective.

I have no problem with your offering a counter point of view.
That's what debate is all about.


Anyway, I see from your last post that you continue to exhibit a vast double standard between your behavior being acceptable and what is acceptable for others.  Class act, all the way Patrick.

Jeff, you're the whiney boy who's been acting this way for years.


Again, while perhaps not private, TOC and ANGC are at least iconic courses.

So what.  You claimed I was viewing the issue solely in the context of the private club, and I wasn't, so I cited TOC.
What difference does is make if it's iconic or not ?
Other clubs in the UK do the same thing, so maybe they're semi-iconic.
 

People play for reputation alone, for most its a once in a lifetime experience, so I am not sure those examples typify golf in America.

It used to.
Tees were located immediately adjacent to the prior green, it was almost a design principle.
I know that Flynn and others endorsed "elasticity", but for close to 50 years in America the green/tee principle remained mostly intact.


I can agree with you that it would take years of work to change the multiple tee mentality.  I can agree that for long courses, like ANGC (and even TOC) leaving the back tee markers out for daily play makes sense.  Big whup. 

But, it is a "Big Whup".  It indicates, that with a quality product, that golfers are content to play from but one common tee.
Certainly you see the value of having the iconic clubs adopt that philosophy.



Those tees were all added for tournaments specifically, so why not drag them out for only tournament time.  It is a GREAT way for golfers to enjoy those tournament venues without them being a slog.  But, that is already being done at most tournament courses, so what is the point? 
Are you just typing to type, or do you understand the underlying premise, which is the elimination of multiple tees in favor of one commone tee/pad


When 60% of golfers play at a preferred distance of 6300 yards anyway, why is my perspective off when I say I would play that length gladly (at an iconic course, or otherwise in my case?) 

I don't know where you get the stat that 60 % of golfers are rushing to play at 6,300.

My thoughts were more along the lines 6,500 to 6,800 or about 16.66 yards per hole difference.


But, my son would prefer to play longer because he still can!  I presume the percentage of golfers going to those two courses are about the same as those elsewhere, distance wise.  So, I still have no difficulty in accepting there are multiple tees to use that make his, mine, my wife's experience as good as it can be.

Partially because you're caught up with the notion of "par"
Why wouldn't you, your wife and son have a good time playing from the same tees at TOC and ANGC ?
What is it that you find so abhorent about playing together from the same tees on those courses ?


You are right, I probably just don't understand your premise,

I figured that out long before you did


because I believe my chance of seeing a ball roll back is about the same as my chance of seeing the Easter Bunny, so I frame my answers accordingly.

You never know, today "anchoring", tomorrow, "the ball"


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the need for
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2013, 04:31:11 PM »

In an effort to get away from the name-calling, I'll simply say that the concept doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So, we're going to build up features for the shorter golfer to interface with ... which to me sounds like you're building bunkers or other kinds of trouble that will be in play for the guy who might hit it 200 if he really rips it. So now not only is he 100 yards shorter than people he might be playing with, but his 180yd drive might find trouble ... which means the trouble in play for the guy who hits it 200 off the tee is now very much in play for his second shot.

I know and play with quite a few people who hit their drives 180-200. None of them lament not being able to reach a hazard off the tee.


Mathew,

You clearly don't get it.

Currently, through the aid of multiple tees you have no problem with the poor player confronting a bunker designed for the better player.

So why would you object to the poorer player confronting a more benign bunker ?


Oh, I get it, I simply disagree with you. This is the "discussion." You ask for it all the time, but you never seem to tolerate it much.

I don't tolerate fools well, and your response was foolish.
And, it's not that you disagree with me, which I have no problem with, it's that you presented a situation where you objected to the lesser golfer confronting a more benign bunker but didn't object to that same golfer confronting a far more difficult bunker.  That's  just dumb. or foolish to be polite.

In addition, you seemed unable to grasp the concept that par is irrelevant, as is golfer "A" being 50 or 100 yards behind golfer "B".
All of that gets automatically factored into the handicap.


On the one hand is a hole of perhaps 420 yards from the back tees with multiple sets in front of that where I might play from the back tees and find a deep fairway bunker 260 yards off the tee and my Dad might play from the whites and find the same bunker with his drive of 190.

Ahhh, so there is hope for you.
The problem with the multiple tee system is that the features/bunkers in the DZ, presented to challenge the best golfers, also challenge the worst golfers, and they're ill equiped to meet that challenge.

With one tee, your dad wouldn't reach that feature/hazard.


On the other hand is, say, a 400 yard hole where my dad and I tee it up in the same spot and we both hit similarly wayward drives. Mine finds the deep bunker 260 from the tee, and his is in a shallower bunker 190 off the tee.

Maybe, maybe not, all features don't equate to bunkers, but, let's suppose I accept your example.
See below.


There's just a world of difference there. In the second scenario, not only is he compromised for distance, he's still in a hazard, and there's an even more penal bunker just waiting for him about 70 yards ahead of him.

If he was in "your" bunker, he has a far more difficult shot confronting him, but, in his bunker, extrication is relatively easy.
Secondly, why do you assume that your bunker is in his line of play ?
You've predetermined the answer by your flaw in designing the hole.
At 190, he's only got 210 to the green, if he hits a bunker shot 130 yards, he's got 80 yards remaining.
He pitches on, one or two putts and makes 4 or 5, getting a stroke, 3 or 4, while you, have a difficult bunker shot with only 140 yards in.

I'm also curious, what courses with 400 yard holes, have bunkers 260 from the tee.
Can you name some ?


How is that better than him just having the option to play a shorter hole that allows him to interface with the same features everyone else does?
Because that feature/bunker is too difficult for his ability.
Why should he have to deal with a feature/bunker designed for a scratch golfer when he's an 18 handicap ?



Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2013, 04:38:19 PM »
Patrick,

 I have some industry studies on what golfers play what distances, which I have posted before.  I back that up with my own observations, and actually, the TD distance thread was pretty consistent.

 I clearly understand your underlying premise, that isn't the problem.  Apparently, debating it with you is.  See other comments on this and other threads.  Funny, I haven't been called whiny by anyone else....

OK, TOC is public, although technically there is a club or two associated with it if we want to quibble.....that said, I still believe that using iconic courses as examples for the typical isn't right (not just your example here, but that happens all the time around here)  When you go for a once a year or lifetime experience, you don't really play for par.  You take what they give you.

Besides, you presume that in multiple tees that those fw bunkers come into play equally for all.  It could be that way, but even at 25 yard splits, I find most of the fw bunkers are still just beyond the majority of the shorter hitters from the shorter tees.  Why?  The tendency to place them at 290-300 yards from the tips.  The next groups don't hit it 275, 250, 225, etc.  And, the few who do, don't hit it that flush all the time.  The one odd thing about it is, while more average players have more partial misses and land well short of their max distance, the net result is that the guy who hits the best (maybe even career) shot has the best chance of getting into the hazard, which tends to anger them. 

So, I will give you that.  I will also agree that it is possible to cleverly arrange a mix of hazards, like cross slopes, mounds, etc. in the more likely to be found LZ, and use bunkers only where the best players might find them most often.  Of course, we do that now with multiple tees.

That said, I don't think the average golfer would like fewer options at a non iconic course.  They, not me, are caught up in par, although, I do agree (and have seen industry studies again) that say camaraderie is more important to most.  As you say, you would have to change the par mentality of the entire golfing world.  That is a tall order, no?

As to tees and greesn close together, that was lost for a while (housing and maybe even general safety and room for cart paths) and has been re-emphasized.  Just as roads, house lots, houses themselves, etc. are all bigger now than they used to be, so are golf courses.  That is not all mindlessly going astray.  It is logical reaction to both distance increases, but also play increases, experience in safety requirements, etc.  IMHO, placing tees and greens back closer together and limiting tees just because thats the way it was in the good old days is NOT a valid design premise.  Designing for now and the foreseable future is.

If and when the ball rolls back, the carts go away, turf is damaged on tees, the lawyers agree there are no lawsuits, etc., design will change, I guarantee it.  Until then, the current paradigm makes more sense than you admit to.  In general, design reacts to human need/conditions (form follows function) but shouldn't dictate them (function follows some predisposed form from the old days) except in some unusual circumstances like historically signifigant courses.

So, I will agree with you to the point that this is an interesting discussion thread, and I know you start some of these to keep things lively around here, which we all appreciate.  I simply concluded, not once, but twice upon reflection on this thread that any idea that required rethinking of par, score, nearly the entire idea of the playing of golf from the early days on (play for score, or at least holes in match play) and whatever else to achieve the dubious goal of the tees like the old days is not practical.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2013, 05:08:01 PM »

In an effort to get away from the name-calling, I'll simply say that the concept doesn't make a lot of sense to me. So, we're going to build up features for the shorter golfer to interface with ... which to me sounds like you're building bunkers or other kinds of trouble that will be in play for the guy who might hit it 200 if he really rips it. So now not only is he 100 yards shorter than people he might be playing with, but his 180yd drive might find trouble ... which means the trouble in play for the guy who hits it 200 off the tee is now very much in play for his second shot.

I know and play with quite a few people who hit their drives 180-200. None of them lament not being able to reach a hazard off the tee.


Mathew,

You clearly don't get it.

Currently, through the aid of multiple tees you have no problem with the poor player confronting a bunker designed for the better player.

So why would you object to the poorer player confronting a more benign bunker ?


Oh, I get it, I simply disagree with you. This is the "discussion." You ask for it all the time, but you never seem to tolerate it much.

I don't tolerate fools well, and your response was foolish.
And, it's not that you disagree with me, which I have no problem with, it's that you presented a situation where you objected to the lesser golfer confronting a more benign bunker but didn't object to that same golfer confronting a far more difficult bunker.  That's  just dumb. or foolish to be polite.

In addition, you seemed unable to grasp the concept that par is irrelevant, as is golfer "A" being 50 or 100 yards behind golfer "B".
All of that gets automatically factored into the handicap.


On the one hand is a hole of perhaps 420 yards from the back tees with multiple sets in front of that where I might play from the back tees and find a deep fairway bunker 260 yards off the tee and my Dad might play from the whites and find the same bunker with his drive of 190.

Ahhh, so there is hope for you.
The problem with the multiple tee system is that the features/bunkers in the DZ, presented to challenge the best golfers, also challenge the worst golfers, and they're ill equiped to meet that challenge.

With one tee, your dad wouldn't reach that feature/hazard.


On the other hand is, say, a 400 yard hole where my dad and I tee it up in the same spot and we both hit similarly wayward drives. Mine finds the deep bunker 260 from the tee, and his is in a shallower bunker 190 off the tee.

Maybe, maybe not, all features don't equate to bunkers, but, let's suppose I accept your example.
See below.


There's just a world of difference there. In the second scenario, not only is he compromised for distance, he's still in a hazard, and there's an even more penal bunker just waiting for him about 70 yards ahead of him.

If he was in "your" bunker, he has a far more difficult shot confronting him, but, in his bunker, extrication is relatively easy.
Secondly, why do you assume that your bunker is in his line of play ?
You've predetermined the answer by your flaw in designing the hole.
At 190, he's only got 210 to the green, if he hits a bunker shot 130 yards, he's got 80 yards remaining.
He pitches on, one or two putts and makes 4 or 5, getting a stroke, 3 or 4, while you, have a difficult bunker shot with only 140 yards in.

I'm also curious, what courses with 400 yard holes, have bunkers 260 from the tee.
Can you name some ?


How is that better than him just having the option to play a shorter hole that allows him to interface with the same features everyone else does?
Because that feature/bunker is too difficult for his ability.
Why should he have to deal with a feature/bunker designed for a scratch golfer when he's an 18 handicap ?



Pat, your response makes me wonder how much experience you have playing with the 18+ handicaps you think you're trying to help. Many of them already are outside of the par mentality. They're happy to make par, on those rare occasions they do, but they don't stand on the tee with any expectation of reaching the green in "regulation." They just want to make the best score possible. To that end, I think your one tee idea has some potential merit, which is why i took the time to respond.

What drew my concern was this line from your initial post: "In other words, rather than have one prescribed DZ as the focal point, framed with bunkers/features, accessed by the diverse spectrum of golfers from multiple tees, have one tee but multiple DZ's with more random bunkers/features accessed by all levels of golfers." If you already have a guy who can't hit it very far and can't reliably hit it straight, it seems the last thing he needs is more random bunkers or other features in the area where he is likely to drive it. For an 18 handicap there is no such thing as a benign bunker. And every bunker on a hole is potentially in play on any shot until they're past it. There's no bunker in play for me that's not in play for an 18 handicap, no matter the distance, no matter the line.

And since I know you hate it when people don't respond to your questions, here are a few holes from known courses (that, yes, I have played) that are 400 yards with at least one fairway bunker 260 yards out from the tee ...

Pebble Beach #3
Pebble Beach #13
Dove Mountain #4

I only checked those two courses and of the 4 400yard-ish holes, 3 had fairway bunkers in the 260 range. Either I'm lucky, or that's not an unusual thing.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2013, 06:42:38 PM »
Just a further thought which came up from another thread:

Single tees becomes more practical when you allow the fairways to run. Longer hitters are higher hitters, thus resulting in steeper landing shots. Shorter hitters are lower hitters, thus even a topped shot can run on and on. Much of the apparent need for multiple tees is therefore a result of excessive watering policies.

To give credence to the above, let me give the example of the course I grew up at, Hayling. 6,500 yards for the men, par 71. Very much manageable for the older man (and trust me, many of them play there), but a big challenge for the better play. I defy anyone, scratch golfer or otherwise (and I still go back and play it with club pros from time to time), to walk off the course and tell me its length makes it obsolete. At least three of the par 4's on any given day will be almost unreasonable if the wind is at all interesting, the short 4's are tactically set up to cause wide eyes to find disaster and the par 3's won't do your scorecard any favours.

I appreciate the argument that the length of holes on your side of the pond is likely to be more uniform, but firm and fast fairways could go some way to allowing everyone to play a more sociable game form the same pegs.

And to just counter the point made about the apparent the market demand for ever further back markers, throw the machismo option to any group of men and fear of loosing face, in the real world, becomes a factor. Not true? Then why do so many golfers leap at the chance to move up a set of tees "because the guy I was with is quite short"? Don't stick the 7,000 yard pegs out and the majority will be happier.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the need for
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2013, 07:24:58 PM »
Paul,

Can a 180 yard hitter really roll it long enough to match a 300 yard carry hitter?  I doubt it, without being really firm!  The variation among tee shot length is that great anymore.

I agree that more and more folks seem to be eschewing the need to play "all of the course."  Maybe they always did.

Maybe the argument is much simpler than Pat portrays it - what course is willing to experiment with a shorter yardage to see if that 7000 yard moniker is really all that important?  I agree that in so many cases - local clubs and public courses, but not destination resorts and some others - don't benefit all that much from pure yardage for marketing.  The could skip the back tees.  Only 1% really like to play beyond 6800 yards anyway, so what do you lose? 

Nada, unless we believe (and so many do) that while those back tees are mostly rumor to you, its a nice feeling to know that they are back there.  Somehow it connotes quality to the masses.  Will it change?  Perhaps, but it will take a long time.  Golfers, if they were concerned ONLY about score would presumably play the ladies tees, but they don't. They have some internal value system that forces them to a tee where they tend to shoot their normal score, whatever that is, most of the time.  An 80 shooter shooting 90 on a regular basis moves up, and then back if he starts shooting 70 too often.  They want a balance of challenge and success that feels right to them.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the need for
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2013, 07:28:41 PM »

Pat, your response makes me wonder how much experience you have playing with the 18+ handicaps you think you're trying to help.

Mathew,

Very little, only playing with them for 50+ years


Many of them already are outside of the par mentality. They're happy to make par, on those rare occasions they do, but they don't stand on the tee with any expectation of reaching the green in "regulation."

That's not true.
Different golfers have different skills.
Some 18 handicappers hit the ball quite far.
One of our group, an 18, is very long off the tee and with his irons.
Others can hit short and mid-length holes in regulation and ALL aspire to make par.


They just want to make the best score possible. To that end, I think your one tee idea has some potential merit, which is why i took the time to respond.

What drew my concern was this line from your initial post: "In other words, rather than have one prescribed DZ as the focal point, framed with bunkers/features, accessed by the diverse spectrum of golfers from multiple tees, have one tee but multiple DZ's with more random bunkers/features accessed by all levels of golfers."

If you already have a guy who can't hit it very far and can't reliably hit it straight, it seems the last thing he needs is more random bunkers or other features in the area where he is likely to drive it.

But, that's exactly what he faces now, when he plays from the forward tees.


For an 18 handicap there is no such thing as a benign bunker.

Not true, some bunkers are more benign than others.
And certainly, the bunker meant to challenge the scratch handicap is too difficult for the 18 handicapper


And every bunker on a hole is potentially in play on any shot until they're past it.
There's no bunker in play for me that's not in play for an 18 handicap, no matter the distance, no matter the line.

Depends upon whether you're talking about possibility or probability.
Bunkers can be so aligned to make them mostly avoidable by the higher handicap golfer.


And since I know you hate it when people don't respond to your questions, here are a few holes from known courses (that, yes, I have played) that are 400 yards with at least one fairway bunker 260 yards out from the tee ...

Pebble Beach #3
Pebble Beach #13

Pebble Beach hosts a PGA event every year and has the bunkers so positioned
Name 10 local courses where you find 400 yard holes with bunkering at 260
.

Dove Mountain #4

I only checked those two courses and of the 4 400yard-ish holes, 3 had fairway bunkers in the 260 range.
Either I'm lucky, or that's not an unusual thing.

I suspect neither.

# 3   is 403 from the back tee, 390 from the blue
# 13 is 455 from the back tee,  404 from the blue.
And both holes have unusual, long bunkers running on one flank.


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