Official Streamsong 2013 GCA Outing Pairings

[Evan Fleisher]

P.S. We took a straw poll on Sat night to see which course people preferred. It was a blowout to Red - 11 voted for Red, 3 voted for Blue, and 2 thought they were equal. I must say, this was quite surprising coming from GCA crowd...

Just curious if there was any pattern to which players liked Blue over Red.

The feedback I've gotten so far is that the conventional wisdom is backwards from what's been said about them so far.  The strongest notes of praise I've gotten about the Blue course have come from the lower-handicap players, when all the early guesses were that the higher-handicap players would like the Blue better, because it's wider.

P.S. to Howard:  If there are plans to build more bunkers on the 17th hole, they are not mine!  I think the paint outlines you noted are only areas where they want to re-turf or fix a drainage problem.  That part of the hole was very low and wet originally, and it still doesn't drain as well as we'd like it to when the summer rains come.

Tom,

As a 10.6 index (should actually be higher...) I was one of those who voted Blue over Red, but we are certainly splitting hairs over two wonderful golf courses.  On our crammed ride from Streamsong back to TPA airport...Choi, Santodomingo and I did a hole-by-hole match play to see which course would win.  Result?...Red two-up.

[jeffwarne]

Jerry,
I was staying in Bartow-I kind've wondered about your drive from Streamsong to Hacienda for dinner (or more to the point, the drive back after a few margaritas ).
I'd say that area may be more noted for barbecue

[Evan Fleisher]

More kudos (from the Team Red captain) to Howard for organizing such a fantastic gathering and congrats to Team Blue captain Rich Choi for mastermining such an impressive victory for his squad...although the fact that I was not present Saturday night to engineer my line-up puts an astricks next to your victory.

I smell a re-match!!! 

So great to see old friends and make new ones...as so often happens at these gatherings.  Thanks to everyone for their kindness, friendship and generosity...can't wait for the next one!

[Jonathan Mallard]

First: A huge thank you to Howard for organizing this event.  Well done. I enjoyed meeting each of you that attended.

As has been mentioned before, I voted for the Blue. For the actual golf, visuals and shot value (that may change with more knowledge) I think the Red might have an edge. But, I choose to downgrade the final result on the walkability due to what I thought were excessive green to tee transitions, and in a few cases, tee to fairway transitions. Why? If the premise is that you're going to build a course and offer caddies (which promotes walking by any definition) - why do you make it harder to walk? The only noteworthy quibble on the blue course was from 7 green to 8 tee - and I think most understand that given the siting decision for the 7th green. Red, on the other hand has 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 4 to 5,  and especially 14 to 15. Some of the tee to fairway transitions on the back especially on 10, 11, and 17 I thought were a bit overdone as well. The objective [this will warrant a separate thread entirely] is to build a facility that will turn a profit. As such, I question how well the Red will be received by folks over time.

To clarify my MC Escher comment - it was in response to Mike W's characterization that the Blue course seemed to be more uphill. I surmised that generally in the real world, it's impossible to build an MC Escher course, where everything runs one way. Follow the link to his famous lithograph for an explanation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascending_and_Descending

To my partners: Michael - I'm sorry I didn't help very much; Steve - it was an exciting match - no one ever got above 1 up, and All Square is a great ending. I've got to think the Hickories would have prevailed if we went to the Bye; Jerry - you disrespect yourself - you played every hole that you needed to!

And to my singles opponent Jimmy - We're now even!

I look forward to seeing some of you again, and meeting others at another event.

[Michael Whitaker]

Howard - I've told you how much I appreciate your efforts on our behalf. You are the best golf trip planner I have ever seen!!!

Evan - You are a good man and I can't publicly thank you enough for all your help on Friday. Enough said.

Rich - Glad I could carry you through to victory on Friday!  I had a great time partnering with you on the Blue and Jimmy on the Red. Good clean fun was had by all!!!

Tom D - Unfortunately, I was only able to play the Blue one time on this trip instead of three as I had planned. My thoughts have been tempered a bit by the second tour, but I still think there are a LOT of holes/shots that play uphill... which makes it a little tougher walk than the Red for me. The greens, while difficult and sometimes amazingly tricky, are not as much of an issue for me as they can be learned over time. But, based on your comment above about Blue 11, guests should be given some type of playing guidance when holes are designed to punish a golfer around the green when he is out of position, as is the case on 11. While 11 is the hole that "set me off" on my tirade during my first play of the course, I really like the concept of the hole... it reminds me of a hole you might find on The Old Course.

There are a number of holes on the Blue where local knowledge is critical to avoid a seemingly bizarre outcome to a well executed shot. Three holes that come to mind are 4, 5 & 15, where unseen severe contours in or around the green can cause the ball to careen away from the intended target in a very punishing manner without prior warning. Maybe some of the caddies coached their players appropriately, but none of the caddies I experienced did much more than provide distance to pin information or try and help with putts. Most players will only see these courses one or two times in a year (or a lifetime) and having that type of unknown challenge to overcome can be quite frustrating on a resort course.

I'm definitely going back. Now that I have a better understanding of the towns and villages around the resort I think an annual visit is not out of the question with a small group of friends. Maybe Howard will plan a reunion event at Streamsong next year!

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

Interesting comments about the walkability of the two courses.  I've been amazed that so many people have focused on that part of it, and provided such different opinions ... remember that Brad Klein found walkability as much better on the Red course, thinking that the transitions from 7-8 and 12-13 on the Blue spoiled the flow of the course.

I don't have much skin in that game, really, since Bill and I worked on the routings together and we both worked to make the transitions as easy as we possibly could.  I can tell you that the green-to-tee walks are a big focus for Bill and one of the things I most admire about his courses, how seamlessly he makes some of the holes flow together.  Green-to-tee walks such as 9-10, 10-11 and 11-12 on the Red are as good as they get.  However, I do think Bill was a little less worried about the walks at Streamsong because he thought that most people would take a cart.  Whereas, some of the walks on the Blue course like 3-4, 4-5 and 5-6 work fine for walkers, but pretty badly for people playing in carts, unless they remember to bring their drivers with them.

By the same token, the two long walks mentioned above on the Blue course are both the result of the Red course crossing inside the loop at those two points, and the Blue course transitions being longer so the Red course transitions could be shorter.  There are always trade-offs, and I would hate for people to rate one course or the other as better just because of those.


Michael:  Thanks for your comments about the greens and how they can kick shots off-line.  I expected that comment and thought a lot about whether it worked or not on hole #5 and #11, but I hadn't anticipated it on other holes like #15 or #12, and I can see how it would bother many players if they'd hit their best approach of the day right to the contour in question.  We love to build holes where you sometimes need to aim at Point B to wind up at Point A -- like we all see on TV the first week of April every year -- but perhaps we are not making the transition area big enough to be a realistic target.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tom - I think the transitions are adequate on the holes I mentioned. It's just that the players generally have no warning of the possible end result. A good caddie or detailed coaching in the course guide woukd be a great help since it is a resort course and most players won't have the opportunity to discover the Point A to Point B connections the first or second time around. I can now see how your course can really grow on someone with repeated play... it will be interesting to see how the occasional resort player will react.

[Steve Wilson]

First of all, thanks to Howard once again.  I think he qualifies as a professional cat herder after this display of organizational virtuosity.

There were a lot of highlights for the past weekend, but the best moment came when Mike Whitaker returned hale and healthy for the Saturday evening dinner and gloatfest by Choi's Champions (otherwise known as the Blue team).

Sadly, for me, I can no longer recall the sequence of holes after one or two or even three plays.  So my impressions of the courses are just that--impressions rather than a hole by ratiocination of the relative merits.  Nudged by Richard Choi into expressing an opinion after the first day of play I came down on the side of the Red course because I found it more visually appealing (Chris Sturges went so far as to describe it as "more visually stunning" and I incline to that also).  Let it be noted that I preferred the Red despite playing much better on the Blue during the Friday rounds. 

Once I had expressed my opinion I resolved to play more attention to the courses, particularly the greens because my impression was that the Blue greens were more interesting.  A second day of play confirmed those impressions, but it also reinforced my preference forthe Red over the Blue.   Reduced to the how many plays out of ten I'd go six-four, and that would be open to revision with repeated plays.

I think the tipping point for me was the sight of the flagstick on 13that Friday.  Located where it was it appeared to suspended in mid air when viewed from the fairway.  A minor thing perhaps, but aesthetics are subjective, a trim ankle vs. a shapely calf depending on the the inclincation of the beholder.

Favorite par 3--the Biarritz on the Red
Favorite par 4 --the 11th on the Red
Favorite par 5--the 17th on the Blue

My secondary impression was the width of the Blue fairways.  I heard the number 120 yards wide being bandied about for one them.  And I suspect given the complexity of the greens that width would be required to approach many of the pin positions on the greens that evidence of several large mammals being buried under them. 

All of that being said about the width of the blue the narrowest two shotter on the property has to be the 6th(?) on the Blue course.

I regard both courses as being big boy golf and I was hesitant about trotting out my hickories on them, but I am glad that perissted through five rounds with them.  Aside from a few miserable swings which would have been miserable with any set of clubs, I felt like I was able to get around the property without making a complete fool of myself.  The fast and firm conditions effectively shorten the course so that the roll out with my brassie minimized the separation from the modern equipment. 

It was great to see old friends and to meet new ones.  I discovered some GCAers not far from my "neuk" of the woods, and I hope to get together with Dean sometime soon when we are both using our hickories. 

Lastly for now, I want to thank Johnathan Mallard for his characterization of our partnership as having an "exciting" match.  I think a more accurate adjective would have been suspenseful as in where's the guy with the suspenders going to hit it this time and when, if ever, is he going to contirbute?   

Great times, great guys, great golf courses.