[Peter Pallotta]

Tom's thread asking what tees/yardages we play from produced answers (and an 'average answer') that surprised me. With it now being March and so almost like April, it struck me that Augusta had figured out that same 'average answer' long before I did. They have their championship tees at 7,400+ and then their members tees at 6,100+...and that's it, just those two sets of tees. And the yardage they have decided on for members/regular play seems absolutely spot on (judging from our answers to Tom's question, and factoring in the course's undulating and at-sea-level nature and heavily contoured greens). And I thought: well, who would've guessed that Augusta understood the average golfer so well!!

I remember seeing the yardages from when the course first opened: I was struck by the fact that, on hole after hole, the championship tees/yardages were only about 25 yards longer than the regular/members tees -- but that was probably absolutely right/appropriate for the early 1930s. Now in 2010s, the differential is, on average, about 60-70 yards longer....again, probably just about right for the times we live in and for the ever growing differences between top flight players and amateurs.  

I know: some will say "Yeah, but the old members at Augusta are not like the members at many other golden age courses, and those members are insisting that their courses be lengthened in order to stay relevant". But after looking at the answers on Tom's thread, I'm thinking that maybe the old timers at Augusta are right, and that the only real difference is that Augusta members are so secure in themselves and the value of the course -- at 6,100 yards -- that they don't care what other people say/do...and they leave it to 'all the rest' to frantically try to stay 'relevant' to their members and the golfing world at large. (After all, from what I read even the greatest golfer of all time, Jack Nicklaus, is happy to play the members tees when he plays Augusta -- and how much more street cred do you need?)  

Again, no big revelation here: just an interesting (and somehow charming) indication of how the green jackets at Augusta, for all the lushness and narrowing and 'suction cups under the greens' can also have their finger on the pulse of the game.

Peter

[jeffwarne]

and the weather's cold and wet much of the time they're open

[noonan]

6100 yards is plenty long for such a difficult 2nd shot course - any longer and members would have approach shots too long for their skill level

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

You're off by a few hundred yards.

Recently, the "Members Tees" were at 6,365.

They might be slightly longer as I type this.

On opening day the course played at 6,300.

After # 16 had the green relocated, the course played at 6,325.

There are some who think that the course needs another set of tees at about 6,900, and I'm one of them  

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat - thanks, and I stand corrected; but I think my main point is still relevant (and maybe even more appropriate, vis-a-vis the average yardages we've reported to Tom on his thread).

Jerry - thanks; your point raises another one, i.e. that the flattening of the old greens so they can run at 12 and 13 on the stimpmeter goes hand in hand with the lengthening of old golf courses...for when the 2nd shot isn't all that demanding (as at Augusta), the quick fix seems always to make the course longer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

What many aren't aware of is that Augusta was intended as a winter destination.

It's closed for the summer and essentially operates from around November to around May.

So what you see on TV at the Masters is NOT typical of the seasonal conditions at ANGC, Nov thru April.

And as such, the course plays longer than the yardage and play in April.

When I first played the Masters Tees, was not an overwhelming challenge at about 6,900.
Today at 7,400+ it's well beyond my ability.

For rounding purposes, the 1,000 yard gap is too big.
6,400 vs 7,400.

Another set at 6,900 would seem ideal.

Although, strangely, my phone hasn't rung for my opinion on the yardages and a competition ball.

Maybe tomorrow.

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat - thanks again for the details, and I don't want to debate you regarding whether or not Augusta needs another set of tees at 6,900 yards. (The words "Have you ever played it?" are already flashing through my mind, in green ink!) But if you haven't had a chance yet, do give the answers on Tom's thread a read. I think you'll find that you're on the 'outer edge' in terms of the yardages you play -- I didn't do the calculations, but it seems that the answers to Tom's "what tees do you play at your home course" question would average around 6300-6400 yards. It struck me as interesting that Augusta's members tees -- the ONLY set for non tournament play -- would be around that number. (I was going from memory, from an old thread, when the tees were at 6100).

Peter

[jeffwarne]

Pat - thanks, and I stand corrected; but I think my main point is still relevant (and maybe even more appropriate, vis-a-vis the average yardages we've reported to Tom on his thread).

Jerry - thanks; your point raises another one, i.e. that the flattening of the old greens so they can run at 12 and 13 on the stimpmeter goes hand in hand with the lengthening of old golf courses...for when the 2nd shot isn't all that demanding (as at Augusta), the quick fix seems always to make the course longer.

Peter,
Can you elaborate by what you mean by "the second shot isn't all that demansing(as at Augusta)"
I'm trying to think of a hole where the second shot isn't incredibly  demanding. Maybe 17 before it was lengthened?
The rest are incredibly difficult second shots, either due to sidehill/downhill lies, demanding targets, or difficult greens wwere it's critical to get it in the appropriate area.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff - no, I just phrased/wrote that very badly. What I meant was, at courses where the 2nd shot isn't very demanding (unlike at Augusta). We are in agreement, and I thought that Jerry's point was well made, i.e. that the challenges involved in the 2nd shot, and the reasons for those challenges (that you just outlined) are what keeps a 6,100 yard course (err...I mean, 6,350 yard course) relevant for the vast majority of golfers.

Peter

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

Just ignore Patrick; Augusta surely will.

I was a bit surprised by the numbers reported back in my thread.  I expected a higher percentage to endorse 6800 or 6900 yard options, although in truth, there are fewer and fewer courses with tees at that length.  The reason is simple math -- if the client insists on back tees at 7200 yards, like Streamsong, and the architect insists on no more than four sets of tees, with the smallest at +/- 5300 for women, then 6900 is just NOT going to be one of the two incremental stops in between.  Generally, it's 6500 and 6000, because that's what golfers want ... even though, as Pete Dye told me thirty years ago, the only way to make modern courses playable for the average golfer is to make the middle tees 5700 yards, and then lie and claim they're over 6000, otherwise nobody would play them.

So, I'm glad I asked what yardages people actually play from, instead of asking what they wanted, because if I'd asked it that way, too many posters might have postured that they wanted to play from longer tees than they really need.  

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - thanks. (You're going to get green-inked for that!) As I say, I too was surprised by the results: I was sure that with the golfing talent assembled here (i.e. most posters being much better golfers than me) and with the range of wonderful old and new courses they get to play, the average would've been closer to 6,600-6,700, and that my comfort range of 6300-6400 yards would've been on the low edge of the average. And, that one of the poster-childs for changes to golden age courses would have its members play from that range/yardages as well surprised me even more. Who knew that, if I were ever invited there I could hold my own at Augusta! 

Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - thanks again for the details, and I don't want to debate you regarding whether or not Augusta needs another set of tees at 6,900 yards. (The words "Have you ever played it?" are already flashing through my mind, in green ink!) But if you haven't had a chance yet, do give the answers on Tom's thread a read. I think you'll find that you're on the 'outer edge' in terms of the yardages you play -- I didn't do the calculations, but it seems that the answers to Tom's "what tees do you play at your home course" question would average around 6300-6400 yards. It struck me as interesting that Augusta's members tees -- the ONLY set for non tournament play -- would be around that number. (I was going from memory, from an old thread, when the tees were at 6100).

Peter,

Members and guests are free to play the Masters Tees, they are not restricted to tournament play

The problem is, that at 7,400, they're well beyond the distance even good players can handle.
And 6,400 is too short for the better player

If one views a golf course as a field of play intended to serve the needs of the broad spectrum of golfers, then three sets of tees at the distances I cited would be reasonable.

You're free to follow Tom Doak's advice to ignore my sage advice, but remember, ANGC isn't your average local golf course and they count amongst their membership, some rather exceptional golfers.

Viewed from another perspective, think of the young aspiring golfer whose game is ascending.
6,400 may not be sufficient to offer the challenge they need to continue to improve their game and 7,400 presents an excessive challenge that would harm their game.

Hence, a happy medium should be struck at ANGC and any club that has back tees at 7,400 or more.

The 7,400+ course is already there, that's not debatable, but if you want to serve the needs of the broad spectrum of golfers, you need reason, not extremes.

Besides, what does Tom Doak know ?   

[Lyne Morrison]

Peter - I could be mischievous and ask at what distance the women’s tees are going to be set?

 



…… oh - never mind.

 

[Jim Nugent]

Pat, can you play the Masters tees at some holes, and still have a good round?  i.e. can you mix and match the Masters tees with the regular tees? 

[Matthew Rose]

I think a 6,900 yard set would be nice, and they could have done so by simply leaving existing tees alone. I don't like that they erased a lot of the old ones. There are many places on the course now where the famous players played from that are just now mounds of rough.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, can you play the Masters tees at some holes, and still have a good round?  i.e. can you mix and match the Masters tees with the regular tees? 

Jim,

I don't understand what you mean by a "good round"

I can't speak for today, but in the past you could.

1,000 yards isn't a minor differential.

[Jeff_Brauer]

What?!  Someone in the mainstream industry actually figured something out right before GCA.com came into existence to tell they how to do it right?  The shock of it all.......

TD, you shouldn't be surprised at those preferred distances.  Those stats are out there.  Heck, I posted those stats here.....I am wondering if the Tee it Forward has any impact on lowering the preferred distance from 6300 to 6100 plus?  Or is it just the graying of the golf population?

As to lying about 6K yards, we always used to believe that, but more and more, I hear seniors telling me that if they don't see a yardage under 6K, they don't like a course and may not play it.  Perhaps the male ego is softening somewhat, because my dad refused to play under 6K no matter what, as Pete described. Either way, more proof that average golfers seek out what works for them having fun, and not some manhood test as advocated by some here (or formerly here.....)

Lastly, I was always struck at how JN strectched back tees further back.  While most gca's have "splits" of 20-25-or 30 yards pretty evenly, JN had no difficulty making his back tees 40 or 50 yards behind the blues, to bring his second set of tees down from 7200 to 6600 or so.  It actually makes lots of sense to design that way, albeit, also looking at each individual hole.  And, in general, with bigger splits on longer holes.  I have a hole we are designing now that will be a 500 yard par 4 from the backs, but about 400 from the next tee across a major river. 

The owner gets his scorecard yardage adds for marketing, the 1% get a stout par 4, and the majority of players see no difference in the hole they play.  Win-win-win.

[V. Kmetz]

Definitely agree with you JB, especially the last bits of summation.

cheers

vk

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, how long do you think Augusta National would be if you played off the very front of every Masters tee?   Off the very back of every member tee?   Perhaps there could be a set of composite tees to hit that 6,800 yard target.

[Ben Sims]

Pat, how long do you think Augusta National would be if you played off the very front of every Masters tee?   Off the very back of every member tee?   Perhaps there could be a set of composite tees to hit that 6,800 yard target.

That's a bingo!  I think some folks would be surpised to know that 1) All yardages at ANGC are measured to the front of the green 2) The course rarely plays at the full yardage during the tournament.  For every tee box where there were markers near the back of the box, there was one where it was at the middle or front. 

Some tees (#2, #14 and #16 jump out in my mind) were long enough to have a relatively dramatic difference in yardage.  Maybe as much as 30yds.  I know for a fact that #4 played off the back of a members tee one day last year. 

I think the majority of the difference in yardages comes from some of the more auspicious changes of the last decade.  Think #1, #5, #10, #11, #18.  Those holes alone probably account for 40-50% of the yardage difference between the members and masters tees.

I think the course is far more flexible than Patrick is willing to give credit.

[Tom_Doak]

I have a hole we are designing now that will be a 500 yard par 4 from the backs, but about 400 from the next tee across a major river. 

That's part of the problem I have with these long long set-ups.  Why build a hole with a tee shot over a river and set it up so nobody ever plays that shot?

[V. Kmetz]

"I think the majority of the difference in yardages comes from some of the more auspicious changes of the last decade.  Think #1, #5, #10, #11, #18.  Those holes alone probably account for 40-50% of the yardage difference between the members and masters tees."

Don't forget about #7 Ben...that one is about 85-90 yards difference from 1997-98...#13 was for years 485, famously so, until it's now...what? 515-530?

1.  I know the players yardage book or sprinkler heads may be measured to the front, but are the "card" yardages also measured to the front?  If so, I never knew that.

2.  Yes, you are so right about tournament play not being tipped out, certainly not when you consider pins on some of the championship rota of huge greens.

2a.  The only one i think has ever been tipped out is the first round at Bethpage 2002.  Knowing the course so well and being there the year previous when the MGA/USGA/NYSGA "guinea-pigged competitors in the NYS Open, I was specifically looking for that element and the only not absolutely two club-lengths from the back of the rear box was 15, which could play up to 479 (?) and was playign from a 455 (or so) position.

cheers

vk

[Jeff_Brauer]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on Today at 08:49:28 AM

 I have a hole we are designing now that will be a 500 yard par 4 from the backs, but about 400 from the next tee across a major river.  



That's part of the problem I have with these long long set-ups.  Why build a hole with a tee shot over a river and set it up so nobody ever plays that shot?

TD,

As the course plays now, the better players around town are clamoring for more length.  It is really a beautiful tee shot from across the river, too.  As a redo, it was one of the few opportunities to give them a long par 4 on a very short course.  Overall, it made some sense.

Now, whether it is possible to build a course and ignore the 1% of better golfers altogether, I agree it can and should be done.  On the other hand, if your course is percieved as too short and it has been losing play, maybe it does make sense where I am.  We can only hope the renovation adds to play as expected.

But, most owners hate to ignore the good player, especaially in a resort environment, where groups of golfers have been known to charter a bus and fill the entire day of tee times with one group.  Generally the guys who organize those trips are the better players, no?

[Thomas Dai]

What about the effects on distance of -

1) altitude
2) temperature

I recall a TV commentator's comment that at a certain course (I think it was Castle Pines) altitude equated to 10% in distance terms.

Also, wasn't there a recent piece in a golf magazine, was it maybe Golf Digest (?), that gave loads of stats etc and concluded that for the modern golf ball the optimum temperature was 22-25*C - temps higher than this meant lost performance (excess spin?) and temps lower than this meant insufficient compression and lost distance, massively so as the temp gets down nearer to 0*C.

I wasn't sure whether to ask this here or in Tom D's recent post about course playing lengths but here it is.

Any GCA's take these factors into account in terms of the length of holes?

All the best

[Jeff_Brauer]

Thomas,

Well, I know I do.....I even take uphill and downhill on any given hole into consideration.  Just this morning, I moved a proposed fw bunker (on plan) that I had on the prelim back about 30 yards to the tees, to make up for the lesser distance players will get going uphill.

It is harder to use prevailing wind and temperatures, since they obviously vary quite a bit.  But, in general, I might tend to shorten fw bunkers up in MN where much play will be outside the traditional summer months (summer scheduled for July 19th, this year!)

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