The 25 most Architecturally Interesting Courses in the U.S.

[Sven Nilsen]

What courses would you add or subtract from this list (and why):

Augusta National
Baltusrol (Upper)
Bandon Dunes
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Fisher's Island
Friar's Head
Merion
Muirfield Village
NGLA
Oakmont
Olympic Club
Pacific Dunes
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley
Prairie Dunes
Sand Hills
Sawgrass
Seminole
Shinnecock
Spyglass Hill
The Ocean Course
Victoria National
Winged Foot (East)
Winged Foot (West)

[Bill Brightly]

It is actually a pretty good list. You could certainly use this list if you were designing a class to teach and discuss gca.


Augusta National
Baltusrol (Upper) Ridgewood
Bandon Dunes Garden City
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Fisher's Island
Friar's Head
Merion
Muirfield Village
NGLA
Oakmont
Olympic Club
Pacific Dunes
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley
Prairie Dunes
Sand Hills
Sawgrass
Seminole Pinehurst #2
Shinnecock
Spyglass Hill Chambers Bay
The Ocean Course
Victoria National
Winged Foot (East) Southern Hills
Winged Foot (West)The West is enough to study how a great course can be built on an average site

[Ed Oden]

What courses would you add or subtract from this list (and why):

Augusta National
Baltusrol (Upper)
Bandon Dunes
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Fisher's Island
Friar's Head
Merion
Muirfield Village
NGLA
Oakmont
Olympic Club
Pacific Dunes
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley
Prairie Dunes
Sand Hills
Sawgrass
Seminole
Shinnecock
Spyglass Hill
The Ocean Course
Victoria National
Winged Foot (East)
Winged Foot (West)
Ballyneal
Eastward Ho!
Garden City
Kingsley
Old Mac
Pinehurst #2
Riviera
Somerset Hills
Yale

Just to be clear, I have played most, but not all, of the courses that I added and subtracted.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bill:

Why Chambers Bay over Bandon Dunes?

Why Garden City over Seminole?


Ed:

Why Ballyneal over Sawgrass?

Why Kingsley over Victoria National?


Not arguing, just asking.

Sven

[Mac Plumart]

I would add Sebonack to the list.

We are talking "most architecturally interesting" and not "best" or "perfect"...simply the most interesting courses architecturally.

I think at Sebonack you get to see the mixing and melding of two distinctive styles.  And you end up with the thrill of Nicklaus golf tee to green, the wonderful routing of Renaissance Golf Design, and the wonderful turf and views of Southampon, NY.

Furthermore, you get the undulating greens that Renaissance is famous for (and these just might be the greens that changed Nicklaus' green construction style) that are, at times, stimped too high.  This adds interest in my mind as you get to see what people mean when they say too much contour and too much speed don't mix.

Also, you have a wonderful routing that is jarred a few times by out of place design items...like the pond on 8.  Again, I think this adds interest architecturally as you can literally feel the flow of the routing and the course broken the instant you come around that corner on the 7/8 transition.

Adding it all up, I think you get a really good golf course that has a lot of interest and food for thought for the architecturally minded golfer.

[Ronald Montesano]

Myopia

[Sven Nilsen]

Mac and Ron:

What courses do you knock out for Sebonack and Myopia?

Sven

[Mac Plumart]

With NGLA on the list, I think you can knock off Fishers.

However, I'd have no real issues if you knocked off Kiawah Ocean, since TPC Sawgrass is on there (or vice-versa).  

[jeffwarne]

What courses would you add or subtract from this list (and why):

Augusta National
Baltusrol (Upper)
Bandon Dunes
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Fisher's Island
Friar's Head
Merion
Muirfield Village
NGLA
Oakmont
Olympic Club
Pacific Dunes
Pebble Beach
Pine Valley
Prairie Dunes
Sand Hills
Sawgrass
Seminole
Shinnecock
Spyglass Hill
The Ocean Course
Victoria National
Winged Foot (East)
Winged Foot (West)

Spyglass Hill out-Eastward Ho in
WF West out(enough Tillinghast)-Myopia in
Victoria National out-Shadow Creek in

[Michael George]

Sven:

I think your list is pretty good, but I would include:

Shadow Creek - best example of man made golf courses with unlimited budget - remove Winged Foot East
#2 - most severe greens on strategic golf course - remove Seminole
Milwaukee CC - best example of Alison (& Colt to a degree) in US.  Bunkering alone is necessary to see - remove Friars Head
Kinloch - the use of multiple routes to the green - remove Crystal Downs
The Golf Club - I think it is good to see early Dye versus later Dye (Sawgrass) - remove Ocean Course
Firestone South - RTJ penal golf without regard to variance in routing - remove Spyglass Hill
Myopia Hunt - early championship golf by Leeds - remove Fishers Island
Garden City - Emmet/Travis - remove Balustrol (Upper)

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven:

I think your list is pretty good, but I would include:

Shadow Creek - best example of man made golf courses with unlimited budget - remove Winged Foot East
#2 - most severe greens on strategic golf course - remove Seminole
Milwaukee CC - best example of Alison (& Colt to a degree) in US.  Bunkering alone is necessary to see - remove Friars Head
Kinloch - the use of multiple routs to the green - remove Crystal Downs
The Golf Club - I think it is good to see early Dye versus later Dye (Sawgrass) - remove Ocean Course
Firestone South - RTJ penal golf without regard to variance in routing - remove Spyglass Hill
Myopia Hunt - early championship golf by Leeds - remove Fishers Island
Garden City - Emmet/Travis - remove Balustrol (Upper)

Michael:

The list is a starting point, selected with a purpose, but does not necessarily reflect my thoughts on the matter.

I'll ask the same question I asked Bill, why Garden City over Seminole?

And why Firestone South over Crystal Downs?

Sven

[Michael George]

Sven:

I replaced Seminole with #2 as I think #2 is the best example of Ross' work, especially since he continued to work on it until his death.  I included Garden City to reflect Emmet and Travis, which are not represented in your list.  I picked Firestone South because I think you need to include a course that illustrates RTJ "hard par,easy bogey" philosophy with trouble on both sides of the fairway and little concern about the variance of the rouring (every hole runs north-south except #6).  I think MacKenzie is covered with Cypress and Augusta.

Again, this is not a list of my favorite designs.  It is just to give a variance of looks to learn from.

[Ed Oden]

Sven:

I am admittedly not a big fan of Pete Dye's work.  That being said, I actually think Sawgrass and its architecture are very good.  But there is a difference in my eyes between good and interesting.  I can appreciate that Sawgrass is a first class course without finding it interesting from an architectural standpoint.  For my money, there are individual holes at Ballyneal that have more interesting things going on than all 18 at Sawgrass combined.

Victoria National is one of the courses I haven't played yet.  Unlike many on this site, I do think Fazio has done some really high quality work and I very much look forward to playing VN.  I'm sure it is top notch.  But I have played a ton of Fazio's best and am skeptical (perhaps wrongfully so) that VN will bring more to the architectural table than Wade Hampton, Diamond Creek or Dallas National, for example.  Kingsley, on the other hand, is a marvel.

How did you go about compiling your list?

Best wishes,

Ed

[Michael George]

Ed:

I almost replaced Victoria National with Diamond Creek.  I have heard that Victoria National is one of Fazio's best work and therefore did not remove it.  However, I thought that including Diamond Creek instead of Victoria National would also give the viewer the opportunity to see a routing along a hillside.  I have not played it, but have heard that Diamond Creek's routing is quite interesting given the topography of the site.

[Mac Plumart]

Inverness

This is such a truly great example of what happens to a course when the integrity of a renovation isn't in keeping with the original design.  You can easily see the holes that are not Ross' and you can see the holes that have little add-ons here or there...again, not in keeping with the courses original style.

I do really like Inverness.  I think it has the bones to be truly great...but these noted aspects of the renovation(s) hurt the course IMO.  But they do make it interesting for a student of architecture to study.


So, in summary...add Inverness and Sebonack.  Remove Fishers Island and Kiawah Ocean (or Sawgrass).

[Bill Brightly]

Bill:

Why Chambers Bay over Bandon Dunes?

Why Garden City over Seminole?


Ed:

Why Ballyneal over Sawgrass?

Why Kingsley over Victoria National?


Not arguing, just asking.

Sven

I took off Seminole and replaced with another Ross course, Pinehurst #2, that I thought was more significant from a gca perspective.
I added Chambers Bay because of the site and construction methods, which I think is appropriate. I deleted Bandon Dunes because I think one Bandon Course is enough, and I think PD is more significant. And I did not add Old Mac because Macdonald is covered with NGLA. Likewise, I did not add Yale or Yeamans Hall because I left Fishers Island on to cover Raynor

[Sven Nilsen]

Ed:

Here's the genesis for the list:  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55013.0.html

Its basically a list of courses that seem to get there difficulty from features unrelated to their length.  

Michael:

Just making sure that my questions weren't taken as an argument for one course over another.  Just looking for some reasoning.  You and Mac focus on the slate concept, in that you look at the group in its entirety to determine a representative selection that includes different schools of architecture.  Its an "interesting" take.

The other side of the coin is that there might be a lot to learn from seeing Seminole and Pinehurst, or seeing Cypress, Augusta (today) and Crystal Downs.  

Sven

[Bill Brightly]

And I think Murfield Village belongs on the list because it is a superb example of a hard, beautiful course designed by a pro. That makes it Architecturally Interesting.

[Michael George]

Inverness

This is such a truly great example of what happens to a course when the integrity of a renovation isn't in keeping with the original design.  You can easily see the holes that are not Ross' and you can see the holes that have little add-ons here or there...again, not in keeping with the courses original style.

I do really like Inverness.  I think it has the bones to be truly great...but these noted aspects of the renovation(s) hurt the course IMO.  But they do make it interesting for a student of architecture to study.


So, in summary...add Inverness and Sebonack.  Remove Fishers Island and Kiawah Ocean (or Sawgrass).

Mac - I think the same can be said about Oakland Hills.   It is striking how different #10 and #11 (which I understand are mostly untouched Ross holes) are from the rest of the course.

Also, if you love the bones of Inverness, you have to get up to northeast Ohio again because you will absolutely love Brookside.  I think it is the best (and most authentic) Ross in Ohio (over Inverness and Scioto) by some ways.

[Bill Brightly]

With NGLA on the list, I think you can knock off Fishers.

However, I'd have no real issues if you knocked off Kiawah Ocean, since TPC Sawgrass is on there (or vice-versa).  

OUCH! One is Macdonald, the other is Raynor...

[Sean_A]

Judging from photos only, I would find a way to get Garden City & Myopia on the list because they are still two old-school designs not part of the Mac/Raynor school.  I probably ditch a Winged Foot & Baltursol Upper.  

Just comparing neighbourhood courses, I think Kiawah is a better course than Yeamans, but Yeamans is a more interesting course for study because of how the defense is mainly found at the greens and a very interesting routing.

Ciao  

[Michael George]

Sven:  You certainly could approach this exercise by picking a select few architects and really studying their work in different sites. I have no clue which way is the best to learn.  I know that I would enjoy the exercise a lot more your way!!!  However, I don't know if my eye is good enough to truly see all of the differences that would need to be seen.

However, I do think there is a value to seeing "penal" courses such as Firestone to truly see the difference with golden age.

[Andy Troeger]

Victoria National is one of the courses I haven't played yet.  Unlike many on this site, I do think Fazio has done some really high quality work and I very much look forward to playing VN.  I'm sure it is top notch.  But I have played a ton of Fazio's best and am skeptical (perhaps wrongfully so) that VN will bring more to the architectural table than Wade Hampton, Diamond Creek or Dallas National, for example.  Kingsley, on the other hand, is a marvel.

Ed,
I actually think Victoria National, just from an architecture standpoint, does bring more to the table than Wade or Dallas National (sadly was rained out last fall at Diamond Creek). Its only slightly ahead of Wade overall in part because the setting at Wade is really special, but I think VN is Fazio's best design effort all things considered. Worth the trip!

Granted, Kingsley is a great choice too. So its a toss-up.

[Tim Martin]

Sven-From the standpoint of getting more out of less Ross's Wannamoisett on 104 acres makes a pretty strong case. I guess if I have to knock one out it would be WFE. I would also add Yale for it's boldness and scale and probably nix Spyglass. Actually I would rather add them both and make it 27.

[Jud_T]

yet another suggestion for the CG Gazetteer...

Sven,  

I'd probably dump Fishers in favor of Shoreacres for Raynor due to his ingenious use of the ravines...