[Rich Goodale]

I've seen this phrase used increasingly on this forum and the more I see it the more I do not like it.  No I do not like it at all....

To me this language segregates the wiser "wholesale" golfer who seeks value for money from the ditzier "retail" golfer who will pay anything to satisfy his or her ego, and it really bothers me that people seem to think that from a golf course developer/architect's point of view the "retail" golfer is the target and the "wholesale" golfer the nasty nuisance that the developer/archtect needs to tolerate rather than serve.

I consider myself to be a wholehearted wholesale golfer and have no love for developers and architects who (for very good and very financial reaons) cater to those who wish (and even strive) to pay retail.  I will play their courses, but at a comped or reduced fee and/or very seldomly with very good friends.  I will not be a regularly returning customer to such places, as I have better things to do with my life and my money than give support to people whose strategy seems to be to produce "money without commensurate value" golf.

So be it.

Rich

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:

Mike Keiser was the first I ever heard use the term, and the book(s) about Bandon Dunes have helped to popularize it.

I think Mike mostly meant "customer", but he did also mean the customer who would pay retail to play a new course.

The bottom line is that new golf courses have to charge retail prices.  If they can't, then they have to charge liquidation prices.  Wholesale is for older, simpler courses where the debt is already paid off.

[Garland Bayley]

Rich,

If you went to KP at Bandon, then you are a "Retail Golfer". As far as I know, Mike K coined the term for golfers that will travel to have new golf experiences in stimulating environs.

Unfortunately, I don't meet his handicap requirements, so will have to remain a "wholesale golfer".

[Rich Goodale]

Rich,

If you went to KP at Bandon, then you are a "Retail Golfer". As far as I know, Mike K coined the term for golfers that will travel to have new golf experiences in stimulating environs.

Unfortunately, I don't meet his handicap requirements, so will have to remain a "wholesale golfer".

Garland

My most recent KP at Bandon was not a "new golf experience."  I'd done that and got the t-shirt before in 2001.  I did want to see some old friends and also play Trails and Old Mac for the first time.  Both were very interesting and one was inspirational.  And, given changes in economic circumstances and exchange rates and the different standards between the two sides of the pond, it was very much a wholesale experience for me.  Overall, a 6 on the Doak scale, which is good.

Rich

[Niall C]

Rich

I've always assumed it to mean anyone who pays for a round of golf on a pay and play basis, as opposed to a member of a club. To me that takes in everyone who pays a greenfee whether they are paying top dollar or not. I don't see it as being an abusive term.

Niall

[Jim_Kennedy]

If you use the google and type in "Mike Keiser retail golfer" you'll find that the term is used as TD says, a customer who pays retail for his/her golf experience, no wholesaling for corporate , outings, etc.. It also describes his mantra of golf courses that will please the 'traditionalist', are fun to play, and are built at manageable yardages that the average player can handle, especially folks above the upper single digit range.

I guess if you play in the off or shoulder season at any of the various high end golf locations you can avoid being tagged as a retail golfer.  

[Garland Bayley]

Rich,

Did you get the Old MacDonald DVD? Mike defines retail golfer on it, and I think he mentioned something like a handicap from 7 to 15.

[RJ_Daley]

I take it to mean who ever pays to play, as stated above.  I don't assign the notion of 'wholesale golfer' to anyone that plays a shoulder season.  I think retail is a green fee payer, who pays whatever the going rate on that day and seasonal rate.

The 'wholesale golfer' in my mind are among the group that don't pay their money to pay.  That goes for corporate paid perks, or free courtesies, like the comp'ed rater.  Who ever plays and doesn't pay, for whatever reason, like a professional courtesy, free rider is wholesale in my mind.

I think the club member dues and intitiation payer is neither fish nor foul.  They still are a consumer that pays for the privelege of play and use of facilities.  They just don't pay every time.  And, they can become a pure retail player whenever and wherever else they go and shell out for their golf.  They made a consumer decision to join the club and pay the dues, so  in that regard, they are still retail.

A player who scours the discount deals, pays half or discounted price is still a consumer and making a choice to play and pay. 

I think the tendency to take advantage of the freebies, not pay one's own money to play, brings into question their objectivity when rating or evaluating a course, because free is always nice...and can influence the mindset to like something. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Golfweek interview, 2011, Mike Keiser on the retail golfer: "seven and higher handicap who are avid, even if they are not terribly skilled".

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks Jim.

[Evan Louden]

Does anyone have a guess on what percentage of golfers are "retail" golfers?

[Bill_McBride]

Does anyone have a guess on what percentage of golfers are "retail" golfers?

Not as many as you'd think.  According to the USGA, the average for those who have a handicap is 18. 

[Steve Lang]

  Those that reduce the tee time and golf shop inventory...

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm glad Tom and others clarified the meaning/intention of the phrase; I now don't dislike it as much as I did (which was pretty close to Rich's level of dislike). I still don't think we need to add another 'class' to the customer species (though anything is better than "consumer", which sounds like it intends to convince us all that we're nothing but gaping hungry mouths who care for nothing but being fed/satisfied); and I'm afraid that the trend -- in golf courses -- is indeed towards convincing folks that they actually want to pay retail, and making them proud of it. Mr. Keiser's saving grace seems to be that the "product", i.e. the architecture, is genuinely top flight.

[Adam Clayman]

Mr. Keiser defines the retail golfer in one of Mike Robin's films. I think it's the Old Mac film.

[Gib_Papazian]

The "Retail Golfer" - to me - is the middle chunk of the bell curve, who whines #14 at Bandon Trails is unfair (hence the changes) and who frankly does not think very deeply about golf beyond enjoying it as a recreational activity.

He and his group totter around the various courses up there, taking only a passing interest in the intricate strategies - and don't know or care about the history of Biarritz holes in America.

Like a neophyte in the Louvre, the Retail Golfer is vaguely aware of being in the presence of something of great merit, but cannot explain what it is.

The Retail Golfer remembers the meatloaf more clearly than #2 at Pac Dunes. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Retail golfer has one too many adjectives in it for my liking.

[Jud_T]

How many rounds per year would qualify a golfer as "avid"?  25+? 50+?

[Tom_Doak]

The "Retail Golfer" - to me - is the middle chunk of the bell curve, who whines #14 at Bandon Trails is unfair (hence the changes) and who frankly does not think very deeply about golf beyond enjoying it as a recreational activity.

He and his group totter around the various courses up there, taking only a passing interest in the intricate strategies - and don't know or care about the history of Biarritz holes in America.

Like a neophyte in the Louvre, the Retail Golfer is vaguely aware of being in the presence of something of great merit, but cannot explain what it is.

The Retail Golfer remembers the meatloaf more clearly than #2 at Pac Dunes. 

This is probably not far off the mark, although Gib's contempt for this class of golfer seems stronger than most of us who have to make our living in the golf business.

Mr. Keiser DOES care what the paying customer thinks, more than he is generally portrayed.  The fact that he doesn't care what some potential customers think of his anti-golf-cart policy is so radical, that most people assume that he is a true purist, however they define the term.  He's certainly not above asking architects to make changes in their work, though somehow I've managed to come through relatively unscathed ... in fact, a lot of people seem to like my work better when I keep my wildest tendencies in check because I know that's what Mike wants.

However, Gib will be pleased to know that the current renovations to Bandon Trails apparently do NOT involve further changes to #14 green.  The two greens that were changed were #15 and #18.  The top of the 18th fairway was lowered substantially [you can now see the flag from the tee!] and the green lowered, too, to soften the approach so that short shots don't roll back down the hill so far.  I did not get out to #14, but from what I heard when I was on property last week, there was only some small change to the bunkering on that hole.

[Paul Gray]

The "Retail Golfer" - to me - is the middle chunk of the bell curve, who whines #14 at Bandon Trails is unfair (hence the changes) and who frankly does not think very deeply about golf beyond enjoying it as a recreational activity.

He and his group totter around the various courses up there, taking only a passing interest in the intricate strategies - and don't know or care about the history of Biarritz holes in America.

Like a neophyte in the Louvre, the Retail Golfer is vaguely aware of being in the presence of something of great merit, but cannot explain what it is.

The Retail Golfer remembers the meatloaf more clearly than #2 at Pac Dunes. 

Save for ridiculous complaints about fairness (I can't comment personally about Bandon but I'd be amazed if I didn't agree with you), but is there really anything wrong with the aforementioned species? Better, surely ,that they keep paying up enough to keep such courses open than migrate on mass to nothing but glorified driving range courses.

Forgive me Gib. Formerly I'd have been in complete agreement and made some purist type comments about the masses on golf courses but I'm trying to be a little more accommodating to my fellow man at present. Besides, I've fallen/been dragged into a regular game with an older guy that sits firmly in the dumber end of said spectrum and, despite my initial attempts to avoid this situation, I'm really rather enjoying sprinkling my tiny pearls of wisdom in his direction. My current mission is to convince him that almost every golf course built in Britain between 1980 and 1995 is awful. With a bit of luck he'll soon be full of the same disdain for these cattle tracks as I am. 

[Gib_Papazian]

Attention Knee-Jerk Reactionary Accusatators (That may not be a real word),

Why is an innocuous observation - that everybody on this board knows is the truth - somehow characterized as evidence of an elitist disdain for the average schmuck? (That might be a bit strong, but what I was thinking)

Only an idiot - or someone intentionally committing financial seppuku - would attempt to stop fresh meat from coming through the turnstiles. However, to assert that 75% of the people at the Bolshoi Ballet possess more than a marginal understanding of the difference between those dancers and the Sugar Ditch, Mississippi Ballet is pure bullshit.

75% of the people watching a 49er game don't know a Corner Blitz from a plate of cheese nachos, but still enjoy the game and spectacle. But at an intellectual level they are capable of grasping - given their knowledge of the subject. No different than the various types of golfers.   

"I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like" is just another way of saying that I have never thought deeply about line, tone, texture and composition. The philosophy of aesthetics is the study of a lifetime, just like golf architecture.

So no, I do not have "disdain" for the fat chunk of the bell curve because they are essentially subsidizing (and even underwriting) Mike Keiser's ability to keep building spectacularly interesting golf courses - even through they only grok a small percentage of what separates it from their mud hole back home. Besides the meatloaf of course.

My disdain - and God knows I have some - begins and ends with the tendency of some architectural philistines to tear down and change that which they are too ignorant to understand. You may extrapolate that as you wish. Sometimes art causes some discomfort and controversy until it is understood. The peanut gallery should stay in the pews until they know enough to sit in the faculty lounge.  

The Rite of Spring caused a riot the first time Stravinsky conducted it. Few understood it, yet those who bothered to examine the expression quickly realized he had shifted the paradigm a few degrees. Fast forward from 1913 to 1973 - the music of Yes was also considered too esoteric for the masses, but a few stood back and REALLY listened. Once they did, a new direction was forged.

If the public's tastes were allowed to dictate the direction of art and music, we would still listening to "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" and looking at cave etchings.

The Retail Golfer has a crucial place in the revenue stream, but their place must be kept in perspective.  

              

[Adam Clayman]

Love it Gib, but, what happens when the teachers lounge is the peanut gallery? We all know committeemen are usually on a two year turnstile. And there's been more than a few goobers erected to high office.

[Gib_Papazian]

C.B. Macdonald, Judge Morgan O'Brien and Clifford Roberts believed in benevolent dictatorships. Jackie Burke comes to mind at Champions.

I see their point.

[Paul Gray]

Attention Knee-Jerk Reactionary Accusatators (That may not be a real word),

Why is an innocuous observation - that everybody on this board knows is the truth - somehow characterized as evidence of an elitist disdain for the average schmuck? (That might be a bit strong, but what I was thinking)

Only an idiot - or someone intentionally committing financial seppuku - would attempt to stop fresh meat from coming through the turnstiles. However, to assert that 75% of the people at the Bolshoi Ballet possess more than a marginal understanding of the difference between those dancers and the Sugar Ditch, Mississippi Ballet is pure bullshit.

75% of the people watching a 49er game don't know a Corner Blitz from a plate of cheese nachos, but still enjoy the game and spectacle. But at an intellectual level they are capable of grasping - given their knowledge of the subject. No different than the various types of golfers.   

"I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like" is just another way of saying that I have never thought deeply about line, tone, texture and composition. The philosophy of aesthetics is the study of a lifetime, just like golf architecture.

So no, I do not have "disdain" for the fat chunk of the bell curve because they are essentially subsidizing (and even underwriting) Mike Keiser's ability to keep building spectacularly interesting golf courses - even through they only grok a small percentage of what separates it from their mud hole back home. Besides the meatloaf of course.

My disdain - and God knows I have some - begins and ends with the tendency of some architectural philistines to tear down and change that which they are too ignorant to understand. You may extrapolate that as you wish. Sometimes art causes some discomfort and controversy until it is understood. The peanut gallery should stay in the pews until they know enough to sit in the faculty lounge. 

The Rite of Spring caused a riot the first time Stravinsky conducted it. Few understood it, yet those who bothered to examine the expression quickly realized he had shifted the paradigm a few degrees. Fast forward from 1913 to 1973 - the music of Yes was also considered too esoteric for the masses, but a few stood back and REALLY listened. Once they did, a new direction was forged.

If the public's tastes were allowed to dictate the direction of art and music, we would still listening to "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" and looking at cave etchings.

The Retail Golfer has a crucial place in the revenue stream, but their place must be kept in perspective.   

               

Gib,

Just focus on the breathing.

I didn't personally disagree with your assessment of the masses, simply misread the tone. I certainly didn't suggest you felt any degree of "disdain" towards the broader golfing populous (God only knows there are times when I certainly do).

Nonetheless, I apologise.

[Gene Greco]

     Is an unescorted guest at a private club a retail golfer?

Or a rater for a major golf magazine who gains access to a private club a retail golfer?

Or are we speaking of only public access courses?

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