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Connor Dougherty

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Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Front 9 Posted
« on: February 28, 2013, 02:25:02 AM »
As I was doing research on which courses to play in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area, I was amazed at the few photos that existed of Talking Stick North. It's profiled on the site and it certainly has been mentioned a few times, but I have seen little photographic evidence of it. What a great opportunity to do my first photo thread! Please be kind, and also respectfully critical of my photographs. I'm trying to get better at these sorts of things. I also tried to do the clickable pictures, we shall se if it works.

I played it on a chilly morning the day of the Fiesta Bowl, and the original plan was to play both Talking Stick and We-Ko-Pa, but a frost delay prevented my father and I from doing the latter. As luck would have it, on the flight down, I was reading Geoff Shackelford's collection of essays in Masters of the Links, and one of the essays was one titled, "In Tribute to the Boys," written by Bill Coore. It happened to be about his associates, "the boys," working at Talking Stick on the construction. A few quotes from Coore about the site stuck out in my mind:

Quote
Rarely have we encountered a site so devoid of natural features for golf. We who take pride in selecting sites readily adaptable to golf, found ourselves standing in the midst of four hundred acres of flat desert floor; one percent grade throughout. The human eye cannot detect a one percent change in elevation.

Quote
Dave [Axland] wants me to ride out onto the North Course to look at grassing lines. As we slowly make our way, the slanting light reveals minute contours that were imperceptible earlier in the day.

"Scrooge's [J. Colson Clarke] work," Dave says quietly.

At one point he turns to me and says, "Bill I know that this project has been as difficult as any we've ever done, and I'm probably prejudiced, but is it as good as I think it is?"

"Yes, Dave, it is. it's a clinic on how to create a golf course on flat ground; and Dave, it's a tribute to the boys."

Congrats to all of "the boys." The place is very interesting and looks magnificently natural. Here is also a PDF with computer renderings of each hole: http://www.talkingstickgolfclub.com/sites/www.talkingstickgolfclub.com/photos/TSN-YC.pdf

Hole 1:
Switchback par 4 promoting the draw around the left fairway bunker to get closer to the green.




The bunkers appear to guard the front of the green, but are several paces from the front edge, as shown below.

The green is crowned at the back, making it a fairly difficult target to hit.



Hole 2
Using the boundary, Coore and Crenshaw created a par 5 where left is the ideal position, but doing so brings OB into play.

Approach


The green falls off from right to left, if you bail out right, you're left with a terrifyingly difficult chip shot over one of the two bunkers to a green that slopes away from you. Given the firmness of the ground and that the site is entirely short grass, chipping a ball OB is a serious possibility.


This view from behind the green does not do the slope justice



Hole 3
Another switchback hole of sorts, the bunker is cut at an angle on the left to the hole, and taking it on affords the golfer a better angle at the green. However, taking on the right bunkers would not be a bad option off the tee with a front-left pin.


View from right side of fairway


From the center of the fairway


Behind the green from the fourth tee box, you can see how much short grass is utilized at Talking Stick. There is no rough on the course, and holes like the 3rd are immensely better for it.



Hole 4
Interesting tee shot with a bunker that fingers out from the desert to bisect the fairway. Both the left and right are feasible options. The tee shot is quite intimidating.


Note how well the bunker is tied into the surrounding desert


View of green from right


Closeup of green


Note how the green is crowned in this picture slightly, the bunker pictured is the right greenside bunker



More to come soon...
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 11:04:26 PM by Connor Dougherty »
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Greg Chambers

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Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Holes 1-4 Posted
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2013, 03:10:19 AM »
Nice pics...did you find the course overly lush?  I did.  It's too bad.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Connor Dougherty

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Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Holes 1-4 Posted
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2013, 04:05:40 AM »
Greg, in appearance this was certainly the case, I was kind of shocked walking onto a course that looked as green as it did based on what Ran said in the profile and its location, but it played incredibly firm. Nothing was checking up really, I would occasionally be able to hold up a wedge on a full swing shot but that's about it.

My only complaint was around the greens the difference in speed between the putting surface and the short grass was huge. The greens must have been running at something like 11 or 12, they were some of the fastest greens I've ever played on. Meanwhile the fairway cut, which went right up to the green, was much longer. It made putting from off the surface incredibly difficult.
"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Tom Kelly

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Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Holes 1-4 Posted
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 08:21:16 AM »
I'd heard Talking Stick mentioned before but didn't know much about it, having seen these pics though I am really intrigued and looking forward to the rest of the tour.

I find good architecture on flat land fascinating, it can be simple and subtle yet cause just as many problems to the golfers as huge slopes do elsewhere. I love the simplicity of the 2nd, classic use of the ob.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 08:30:31 AM by Tom Kelly »

Keith Buntrock

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Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Holes 1-4 Posted
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 12:19:46 PM »
I believe they redid all the greens at TSN last summer, which might explain why they are firm and fast now.

Connor Dougherty

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Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Front 9 Posted
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2013, 07:23:19 PM »
5th Hole tee


Fairway from left of the central bunker


Looking toward the back of the 5th green


Green, the contours on this green are not done justice in this photo. I thought this was one of the more interesting greens on the course.



Hole 6
Long par 3, one of my favorite holes on the course. There is more space behind that front bunker than one would imagine.


View of the green from the right



Hole 7
Similar to the 2nd hole, the right side is a ditch that's used to entice the golfer to get as close to it as possible for a better angle to the green. The hole also has a fantastic backdrop.


The ditch on the right


From the left side of the fairway detailing the bunker


It's a shame the cart path is below the contours of the putting green and as close to the back edge as it interrupts what could be a very good short game area.

Hole 8
A superb short par 3


The green falls off at the back



Hole 9
Plenty of space off the tee


From the fairway, a deep bunker guards the right side of the green, mounds dot the left


Closer to the green, the scale of the mound is more apparent


By the right side of the green, this shows the scale of the bunker

"The website is just one great post away from changing the world of golf architecture.  Make it." --Bart Bradley

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Holes 1-4 Posted
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2013, 11:59:19 AM »
I believe they redid all the greens at TSN last summer, which might explain why they are firm and fast now.

I played here on Saturday and the guy in the shop told me as much. Very, very firm greens. Even short irons and edges weren't stopping or leaving pitch marks, and it made for some interesting challenges. Also, the greens on the course were significantly faster than the putting green. Quite a shock the the system on the first.

Had forgotten how much I like this course.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Front 9 Posted
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2016, 08:32:56 PM »
Would love photos of the back 9 as I'm headed to Phoenix in March...


Thanks for a great tour so far Connor!  :D

Mike Hendren

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Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Front 9 Posted
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2016, 11:14:04 AM »
Vastly underrated. 

Thanks for the tour.

Bogey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Front 9 Posted
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2016, 11:30:12 AM »
I also like TSN, though I didn't play here on my trip in January. I think there are a lot of good holes and the fact that the masses don't like it as much as the Troon Norths and Greyhawks of the world mean the prices aren't as crazy.

I think the C&C at We-Ko-Pa is better than TSN, but it is often well north of $200 to play while it seems like there are many days when TSN is close to $100 less than Saguaro. I like Saguaro, but it's not 100 bucks better than TSN.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Holes 1-4 Posted
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2016, 01:05:58 PM »
I find good architecture on flat land fascinating, it can be simple and subtle yet cause just as many problems to the golfers as huge slopes do elsewhere. I love the simplicity of the 2nd, classic use of the ob.


I was thinking the same as Tom about the flat landscape when scrolling through the photos. The fences/ditch/OoB close to the edge of the 2nd green and the 7th fairway immediately brought to mind the 11th hole at Saunton East.


Well done for your first photo-tour Connor. Looking forward to seeing the back-9 and more photo-tours from you in the future.


Atb

BCrosby

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Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Front 9 Posted
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2016, 10:04:40 AM »
Good tour. I loved TSN.


The simple elegance of the 2nd hole foretold the many great holes that followed.


Bob

Bill_McBride

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Re: Talking Stick North Photo Thread: Front 9 Posted
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2016, 10:33:14 AM »
Good tour. I loved TSN.


The simple elegance of the 2nd hole foretold the many great holes that followed.


Bob


I agree.  Standing on the fourth tee looking at all the options to avoid that huge central bunker was exciting. 

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