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David Stamm

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Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 03:46:02 PM »
I cannot fathom this project costing $12mm. Astounding.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Pete Lavallee

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Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2016, 05:13:21 PM »
David,

What would you have bid to get the job done?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2016, 06:16:38 PM »
If they have to use city-employed workers at union wages, that explains a large part of it. That is certainly what drove the cost of the Harding Park renovation 8-10 years ago. 

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2016, 12:26:07 AM »
I play at Torrey Pines a lot. Quite frankly, I think this "redesign" is a total sham. There is no substance here whatsoever. Very disappointing.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2016, 12:46:17 AM »
David,

What would you have bid to get the job done?


Gil redid Soule Park for less than $2mm.  Completely reversed several holes, all greens redone, new tees, all the bunkers. I'll be conservative and say $4mm. 1/3 than what has been agreed upon for Torrey. Unless I missed something (probably USGA spec green?), there is something very wrong with this price tag.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Matthew Rose

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Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2016, 12:52:54 AM »
I realize you can't get much out of a plan, but it looks to me like they are changing virtually nothing. Just rebuilding tees, greens, and moving a few bunkers around.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 12:54:59 AM by Matthew Rose »
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

David_Tepper

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Kalen Braley

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Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2016, 03:36:35 PM »
For anyone who has recently done work in California...

 Is this type of cost just a reality of doing business in Cali, or is this budget super over-bloated as it appears on the surface?  $12 mill to just redo everything seems a massively absurd price tag...

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2016, 03:54:31 PM »
Kalen -

If you are doing work on muni course owned by one of the large cities in Caifornia, you will likely have to use city employees as your laborers on the project. They will likely be paid hourly wages 2x or 3x what a privately-owned course would have to pay to get the same work done.   

DT

P.S. The other day I saw a "for rent" sign for a 1-bedroom apartment posted on a house in a pretty nice part of San Francisco, not far from the Presidio golf course. The apartment had no view and I am pretty sure there was no parking or garage space included. The monthly rent was $4,300! That is where things are at now in parts of California.   
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 04:16:16 PM by David_Tepper »

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2016, 10:53:48 PM »
Kalen -

If you are doing work on muni course owned by one of the large cities in Caifornia, you will likely have to use city employees as your laborers on the project. They will likely be paid hourly wages 2x or 3x what a privately-owned course would have to pay to get the same work done.   

DT

P.S. The other day I saw a "for rent" sign for a 1-bedroom apartment posted on a house in a pretty nice part of San Francisco, not far from the Presidio golf course. The apartment had no view and I am pretty sure there was no parking or garage space included. The monthly rent was $4,300! That is where things are at now in parts of California.


That's San Francisco. The rest of California, and the country (outside of NYC), are nowhere near as expensive. I live in a luxury apartment complex in one of the nicest cities in SoCal and my rent is $1500 a month.

Greg Chambers

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Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2016, 11:54:59 PM »
Kalen -

If you are doing work on muni course owned by one of the large cities in Caifornia, you will likely have to use city employees as your laborers on the project. They will likely be paid hourly wages 2x or 3x what a privately-owned course would have to pay to get the same work done.   

DT

P.S. The other day I saw a "for rent" sign for a 1-bedroom apartment posted on a house in a pretty nice part of San Francisco, not far from the Presidio golf course. The apartment had no view and I am pretty sure there was no parking or garage space included. The monthly rent was $4,300! That is where things are at now in parts of California.


That's San Francisco. The rest of California, and the country (outside of NYC), are nowhere near as expensive. I live in a luxury apartment complex in one of the nicest cities in SoCal and my rent is $1500 a month.


Please tell me where you pay $1500 a month for a nice apartment in SoCal.  Thx
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2016, 12:07:34 AM »
As a cali native, I understand the cost of living differences compared to where I currently live.

I was speaking specifically about undertaking a course project like this in California, vs somewhere else...

Thanks,
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 12:22:17 AM by Kalen Braley »

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2016, 12:14:16 AM »
Kalen -

If you are doing work on muni course owned by one of the large cities in Caifornia, you will likely have to use city employees as your laborers on the project. They will likely be paid hourly wages 2x or 3x what a privately-owned course would have to pay to get the same work done.   

DT

P.S. The other day I saw a "for rent" sign for a 1-bedroom apartment posted on a house in a pretty nice part of San Francisco, not far from the Presidio golf course. The apartment had no view and I am pretty sure there was no parking or garage space included. The monthly rent was $4,300! That is where things are at now in parts of California.


That's San Francisco. The rest of California, and the country (outside of NYC), are nowhere near as expensive. I live in a luxury apartment complex in one of the nicest cities in SoCal and my rent is $1500 a month.


Please tell me where you pay $1500 a month for a nice apartment in SoCal.  Thx


South Orange County

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2016, 11:52:31 AM »
The City of San Diego wants to get three things accomplished with this long awaited redesign; it has been over ten years since they first proposed that Rees Jones redesign the North Course and city residents vehemently protested another torture test, stalling the project:

USGA spec greens; the City doesn't like the pushup California based greens as they require some attention while watering during hot and dry spells. They love the fact that they can just turn on the sprinklers at the South course and not have to worry about over or under watering. Now the greens on the North Course are a work of art and are worth preserving. I asked City Golf Manager Mark Marney if they would consider using XDG as a means of preserving what they have. He said they would do whatever their architect recommended; he clearly didn't know or care about XDG. As Joe Hancock likes to say " there's no money in doing nothing". It's also obvious that even though the Tour Pros only putt on these greens for one day out of the year they are embarrassed by they difficulties they present. Just watch today's telecast and see how badly they putt on them. They now have a steady diet of flat and fast and simply don't possess the imagination to make hard breaking putts!

The City is also desperate to install a $1,000,000 continuous concrete cart path. The one at the South course was instrumental in getting their fairways in shape in the lead up to the US open in 2008. The City can also open the course to cart traffic in wet weather by going cart path only. They installed one at Balboa Park last year so they could send carts out on the 20 wet days we have each year; it will certainly take a long time to get your return that investment. We certainly wouldn't want to interrupt the revenue stream to the City Golf Fund though.

The current green fee for non City residents on the South is $235, the North can only charge $100; the Billy Bell name has little to no cache. However a name brand redesign will allow for a significant hike in green fees for non residents. I would expect the non resident green fee for the North Course to easily double when Weiskopf's work is done.

There are certainly some issues that needed attention at the North. The bunkers have morphed into mere puddles of sand and there was a desperate need for a bunker renovation. The course has been pushed to it's limits distance wise so there will likely be no yardage added. The fairway bunkers all sit at the 250 yard mark off the tees, dating back to when Tour Pros actually hit the ball that far. They provide little deterrence in the Pro V 1 era. The perception is that when they are placed in the Tour Pro range from the back tees they will be completely out of reach for the average player. Sadly Phil Mickelson's plan of moving the 8th green back and directly along the canyon edge, creating a do or die par 5 was not included in the Weiskopf design. Since the entire site is mad of hard pan or red clay topped with a 6 inch layer of top soil it would be prohibitively expensive to do any shifting or regarding of holes, which is why they are only doing tees, bunkers and greens.

"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Matthew Rose

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2016, 11:41:42 PM »
Does Mickelson's plans still exist anywhere? Curious to see how they were different, if much.
American-Australian. Trackman Course Guy. Fatalistic sports fan. Drummer. Bass player. Father. Cat lover.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Weiskopf Talks Torrey Pines Nortth New
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2016, 09:13:44 AM »
Painful to read Pete.
God forbid pros deal with undulation
Take a course serving locals well (perhaps because fewer want to play the South anymore)
inject $12 million-raise the price for non locals-and box out the locals in the process so they can make the $12 million back faster off out of towners


Unless of course they get unacceptable (to the golf public) results like they did the first time.


Out of towners will line up and pay stupid prices for US Open courses.
They probably won't for the SECOND course played by the pros one day out of four in an average tour event.


$12 million............


I do wonder if "experienced" architects get worse over time, managing their operations and plans based on the criticisms they've experienced over their lifetimes.
Often the reactions and comments by the uniformed to good work lead to worse, certainly unimaginative work.
(no doubt they get better at the technical and logistical)
I've had a number of conversations with signatures telling me "what golfers want" that lead me to believe that
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 10:06:17 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey