[Bill_McBride]

Again maybe a balance thing but I find some tilted greens more appealing when the approach section of the hole is somewhat tilted in the opposite direction...

My favourite 'tilted' green is one that is in fact perfectly flat, but looks tilted because of the slope of the ground around it. I have seen many golfers completely perplexed when their ball rolls straight as a die across what appears to be a pretty severe slope.

Tom, the opposite side of that coin is the tilted green that looks flattish because the tilt is part of an overall broad slope.  The best example I can think of is the 17th at Pasatiempo.  The slope appears pretty flat but is actually pretty strong left to right.  I remember it pretty well because one of our Chicago GCAers 7 or 8 putted it in an early King's Putter!   

[Thomas Dai]

Very good thread and quality pictures as usual.

I must say that John Mayhugh makes an extremely good point when he says that "front to back tilt may be the most underutilized green feature in modern courses" and how Herbert Fowler was particularly good at using it.

Here is the 15th hole at the glorious Beau Desert with the photo taken looking from the back to the front of the green.

http://www.bdgc.co.uk/image_gallery_15th.htm

A true gem IMO.

All the best.

PS - my apologies for using a weblink rather than a direct photo but I haven't yet mastered the art of posting photos here.

[Tom_Doak]

There's nothing much more fun than putting away from the hole to get close.

You might remind Mike Whitaker of that if you happen to see him at Streamsong! 

Not everyone is a fan of the concept.

I forgot to mention in my previous post that my best sets of tilted greens were at Cape Kidnappers and Beechtree [NLE].  Beechtree had a bunch of fallaway greens and a couple of strong sidehill tilts.  But, of course, it's gone now.

[Bill_McBride]

There's nothing much more fun than putting away from the hole to get close.

You might remind Mike Whitaker of that if you happen to see him at Streamsong! 

Not everyone is a fan of the concept.

I will be there with him March 8-9 and will certainly be happy to bring this up!   

[Jeff_Brauer]

You want to see tilted greens and fw?  Drink more......

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Jeff,

Here's one you might be familair with 

Here's a snippet from the Gweedore photo tour I did a few years back.

Hole 3 & 12, 338 yard / 305 yards, Par 4

The third hole is one of the most difficult holes on the course. Its one and only defence is a wicked green that slopes from both front to back and left to right. I have no idea what the tilt of the green is, but getting your second shot to stop on the green during a very dry summer can be next to impossible. Fortunately, the greens are never quicker than about 8.

The hole is drivable but you need a good helping wind, combined with a lowish trajectory with a slight draw in order for the ball to run up the slope just short of the green. I've only ever see two players drive the green and they were both scratch players.



For the first timer, it's difficult to know what line to take off the tee, and it doesn't appear to matter much, when standing on the tee. The green is on the ridge directly above the red tee marker in the distance, and hitting straight for it will leave you right in the middle of the fairway.



Now that the sheep no longer graze on this part of the course, there is some rough, but it could hardly be described as penal. The fairway lacks definition as the rough is patchy and wispy in places.



The yellow flag is just visible on the other side of the fence.



The ground begins to rise again when we are within 50 yards of the green. A drive that end ups here on the right edge of the fairway, or even in the semi-rough will give the best angle to approach the green. The pitch should be played so that it lands 5-10 yards short of the green, and also up to 5-7 yards left of the flag. Hopefully the end result will be an uphill putt of a few yards.



The green lies about 30 yds over the brow of the hill. The flag can be seen on the horizon. There are no each pitch shots from this side of the green.



Yes, the green is every bit as difficult as it appears. Getting down in two from where the ball is positioned is not a foregone conclusion.



A fair amount of approach shots - and sometimes putts - come to rest down to the right below the green.



A view of the green from the back left side.



A look back down the fairway.



Another view of the green from the front right side. In the above photo, the approach shot comes from the left. The green slopes from left to right, so approach shot must land about 10 yds short of the green to have any possibility of remaining on the green. Anything that hits the green ends up down to the right and usually about 5-10 yards off the green. I believe this is a great hole, but perhaps a little too severe in windy or very dry conditions. Take your par, breathe a sigh of relief and head to the next tee.

[jeffwarne]

Donal,
I loved that hole.
I had looked at pictures and knew you had to play left.
Aimed 15 yards left, pulled it, and walked up and it was about 5 feet above the hole.
Played about 6 feet of break and made it for three.

Pure unadulterated tilt, and minimal internal contour.
made possible by the miracle of......    (8 on the stimp)

Isn't that green slated for extinction?

Now I'm pissed. I had plans to try a different destination but the wildness of Donegal is pulling me in again

I must say Gweedore is the least photogenic stunningly beautiful course I've ever seen.
Pictures just don't do it justice

[David Harshbarger]

Dónal,

I'm with Jeff in that I love that hole.  Isn't that the essence of minimalist design?  The design boils down to where you place the tee and where you mow the grass short.  Brilliant.

I think it was mentioned re Garden City, but I believe it is a hallmark of Devereux Emmet to use tilt as a defining defense of greens.  His 10th at St. George's is an excellent example where the green falls away front to back, and the approach is played downhill so that shots that land short are kicked forward more.  I honestly don't know how you'd stop a shot on the green short of the 100 yard approach putt.

The other Emmet course I've played, likewise, aren't afraid of tilting a green at really any point of the compass.

[John Mayhugh]

Broadmoor in Indy is a very good example. For the first time visitor, most tee shots seem devoid of strategy. But when you get to the green, it often becomes very clear where you needed to be approaching from. I would think members there have a significant home course advantage.

[Don_Mahaffey]

NOTE:  At 3%, I'm still the outlier among modern architects....

An outlier among more famous architects for sure, but there are some lessor known who are not drinking the tour kool aid.

[Greg Chambers]

Jeff:

It's underutilized in modern design because anything over 2% gives superintendents heartburn.  They won't be able to get the greens up to 12, and they will be looked down upon by everybody else.

don't blame the super, Tom...most I know would rather not have to get them up to 12...besides, what's the difference between 2% @ 12 and 3% @ 10?

[Phil McDade]

Maple Bluff CC next to Madison WI has several greens of this kind; see this thread and particularly holes 1, 2, 13,  17 and 18.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49270.0.html

[jeffwarne]

Jeff:

It's underutilized in modern design because anything over 2% gives superintendents heartburn.  They won't be able to get the greens up to 12, and they will be looked down upon by everybody else.

don't blame the super, Tom...most I know would rather not have to get them up to 12...besides, what's the difference between 2% @ 12 and 3% @ 10?

One is 50% more slope?
Which is quite a difference on a first bounce on an approach played from a poor angle
and which creates a much larger disparity between an uphill putt and a downhill putt

[Charlie_Bell]

To Donal and others familiar with Gweedore, What role is played by the fence in the photos?  I can't quite figure out the routing of the fairway relative to it.

[Adam Clayman]

Torrey Pines south use to be the poster child for tilted greens.

The reason I prefer tilt to other characterizations is that I have the opportunity to show off how aware I am. i.e. Portland  Oregon. Eastmorland. Perhaps the 4th or 5th hole. As one walks off the tee, one could notice the large homes on the hillside to the right. Upon reaching the green, the virgin has no idea on how the green slopes, other than remembering that massive hillside off the teeing ground. Ah ha! It swings right to left. And it did.

I made my first ace on a severely tilted green. The 7th at big run. The last time I was there, there was a butcher altering the green.

It's a function of making the game easier, while blowing smoke up the players arse, by making them think it's actually harder.

The 7th at York cc in Nebraska is another great tilted green.

[Tom_Doak]

don't blame the super, Tom...most I know would rather not have to get them up to 12...besides, what's the difference between 2% @ 12 and 3% @ 10?

One is 50% more slope?
Which is quite a difference on a first bounce on an approach played from a poor angle
and which creates a much larger disparity between an uphill putt and a downhill putt

That's what I was going to say, Greg ... the difference is the first bounce.

As for blaming the superintendent(s), I didn't mean to say it was all their fault.  I know that a lot of them would prefer not to get the greens up to 12.  [And let me be clear, 12 is not the problem ... I think anything over 10 on a daily basis is overkill.]  But it's other superintendents who have made such speeds not only possible but a new standard, and even the conscientious objectors have gone along quietly instead of arguing the point.

[Mike_Young]

Am I the only one who thinks the USGA has gone overboard with their shaved areas?

Hmmmmm.....I don't know how to take that

[jeffwarne]

Am I the only one who thinks the USGA has gone overboard with their shaved areas?

Hmmmmm.....I don't know how to take that

It's appropriate at least 2 ways, but you and I are too old to be familiar with the second

[Mike_Young]

NOTE:  At 3%, I'm still the outlier among modern architects....

An outlier among more famous architects for sure, but there are some lessor known who are not drinking the tour kool aid.

Don,
A fraternal order once asked the question of a prospect " what is the maximum slope for a pinnable area and when the answer is above 1.5 to 2% they would completely freak out...to the point of saying the guy had no clue...

[Mike_Young]

Am I the only one who thinks the USGA has gone overboard with their shaved areas?

Hmmmmm.....I don't know how to take that

It's appropriate at least 2 ways, but you and I are too old to be familiar with the second

Nope...we had to change our shower at the club becuase the younger guys wante more privacy thatn the large single shower with 8 heads....the new thing with them is "weinershaven"  a German phrase

[Ed Oden]

The 4th green at Eastward Ho! is almost absurdly back to front...



Another Fowler of course.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

To Donal and others familiar with Gweedore, What role is played by the fence in the photos?  I can't quite figure out the routing of the fairway relative to it.

Charlie,

The fence marks the demarcation line between land fully owned by the golf club and an area of commonage (where sheep graze) that the club has of rights to. The club erected the fences several years ago, in the hope that some rough could be grown, and some definition would be given to the holes on the golf club's land. It bisects the 3rd fairway at an angle; it's only purpose is to keep the sheep out.

[jeffwarne]

To Donal and others familiar with Gweedore, What role is played by the fence in the photos?  I can't quite figure out the routing of the fairway relative to it.

Charlie,

The fence marks the demarcation line between land fully owned by the golf club and an area of commonage (where sheep graze) that the club has of rights to. The club erected the fences several years ago, in the hope that some rough could be grown, and some definition would be given to the holes on the golf club's land. It bisects the 3rd fairway at an angle; it's only purpose is to keep the sheep out.

Donal,
The best thing about Gweedore is the width provided by the sheep-5,6,7 have a grand scale allowing you to pick your best angle to cope with green tilt and wind direction.
As good as the third hole is, it would be better if there was no fence so the sheep could graze far enough longer right on the tee shot to give the cagey player who didn't try to drive the green a great angle in.
Didn't I hear 3 green and a couple others are being moved off of the grazing land?-a pity

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

To Donal and others familiar with Gweedore, What role is played by the fence in the photos?  I can't quite figure out the routing of the fairway relative to it.

Charlie,

The fence marks the demarcation line between land fully owned by the golf club and an area of commonage (where sheep graze) that the club has of rights to. The club erected the fences several years ago, in the hope that some rough could be grown, and some definition would be given to the holes on the golf club's land. It bisects the 3rd fairway at an angle; it's only purpose is to keep the sheep out.

Donal,
The best thing about Gweedore is the width provided by the sheep-5,6,7 have a grand scale allowing you to pick your best angle to cope with green tilt and wind direction.
As good as the third hole is, it would be better if there was no fence so the sheep could graze far enough longer right on the tee shot to give the cagey player who didn't try to drive the green a great angle in.
Didn't I hear 3 green and a couple others are being moved off of the grazing land?-a pity

Yes, I agree. I'd like to see the grass cut down the the right side, as the ideal position to play your pitch is now in the semi-rough.

Jeff, the problem with the club is they don't know anything about architecture. They view the absence of rough and wide open areas as a negative.

I'm not sure what the plans are. I still haven't been able to get a routing for the new holes. The last I heard was that they may still use the existing routing - but just add the extra holes to the exisitng 9 - as leaving the commonage could make it difficult to return to in the future.

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

Has anybody mentioned Silloth's third green.

When we were at BUDA, Niall Carlton told us that Mackenzie asked one of the labourers to make a flat green. After the work was done, Mackenzie viewed the green and was surprised to see it tilted. The labourer said he was told to make it flat, and he did make it flat, but that Mackenzie never said it couldn't be tilted.

Maybe Niall can recount the story more accurately than my version.

Taken from Sean's photo tour ...

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