Cart Paths inside the FW bunkers

[Jeff_Brauer]

Just returned from Florida where I played a formerly famous resort and tournament course.

It was obvious that cart paths had been added well after the original design.  In ALL cases, the course elected to place them INSIDE the fw bunkers, effectively taking those out of play as a strategic element, and also narrowing previously pretty wide fw from the original RTJ design. (meaning there were a LOT of fw bunkers)

I have seen this so many times before.  In fact, at one of my own courses, paths were added right down the middle of one fw!  As a gca, this galls me.  But, many people must think this is a good idea.  So, my question for pros and supers (or greens chairs) who have added cart paths is, just how does this happen?  Is the golfers desire to be on the fw sooooo strong that they just have to be THAT close to be used?  Is it ever considered as to how that affects the design?

Of, more shortly, WTF?

[Bill_McBride]

Green committees are responsible for a lot of crazy shit.  I guess the only answer in this case is for the architect to lay out the best routing for the cart paths as part of the original design and not leave it to the whim of a bunch of wannabe architects.

Signed,

Former Green and Golf Committee Chair

[Jim Sherma]

It could be a result of "cart path only" regulations and pace of play. Courses where the cart paths are tucked behind mounds or kept unobtrusive in other ways can play very slowly when "cart paths only" is in effect. One surefire way of speeding up cart-ball play is to make the walks between the cart paths and where people hit the ball shorter.

My favorite is the cart path on the far left of a corridor of a three shot par five. The amount of walking that a group of marginal golfers make on this type of set up is ridiculous.

[astavrides]

You could just put the cart path right down the middle of the fairway, that would save a lot of walking/driving and give you a little bonus bounce(s) if you happened to hit it straight. 

[Jud_T]

Jeff,

It's actually quite ingenious in terms of speeding up play.  Now instead of watching that drive you pushed slightly carrom of a path and go OB, it bounces off the path and is saved by the bunker!  You simply have to rename them from fairway bunkers to cart catches...

[Jason Thurman]

You could just put the cart path right down the middle of the fairway, that would save a lot of walking/driving and give you a little bonus bounce(s) if you happened to hit it straight. 

I can think of a few non-photogenic, inexpensive, "rounds factory" golf courses where this would be VERY popular. I'm not sure it's a bad idea at all for a budget course whose focus isn't on aesthetics. I can probably name five or ten courses that would be improved by it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I think I understand the dynamics of cart paths as well as anyone, but just can't see putting them in the middle or inside bunkers. It's possible, with a little thought, to swing them in close just before and after the bunkers for easier access.

I understand right vs left, high (for visibility down) vs low (below fw where golfers may not see where their balls lie).  I disagree with some, like Cornish, who wrote that they should be on the inside of dogleg holes, as that is the driving line of charm and they go there anyway.  I usually put them outside, unless trees shade them out, because the eye draws right to them.

I understand long flowing curves the super can drive at 15MPH in a truck, which also reduce concentrated exit points, etc.

But, I don't understand how someone could consistently put them inside fw hazards.  I would love someone who has been involved in those discussions enlighten me as to what was said back and forth before those cart paths went in like that!

[Michael Underwood]

Ouch!  I do not think I have ever played a course with cart paths inside the bunkers.  In my 40+ years of golf I do not think I have ever played a private, resort, or public course with cart paths that routed down the fairway with the fairway bunkers outside of the cart path?  Just lucky I guess?

[William_G]

2 thumbs way down

cart paths are bad enough as it is

[jeffwarne]

You could just put the cart path right down the middle of the fairway, that would save a lot of walking/driving and give you a little bonus bounce(s) if you happened to hit it straight. 

I can think of a few non-photogenic, inexpensive, "rounds factory" golf courses where this would be VERY popular. I'm not sure it's a bad idea at all for a budget course whose focus isn't on aesthetics. I can probably name five or ten courses that would be improved by it.

Always thought this would be a good idea.
paint them green.
Eliminates tons of walking and stupid mounds built to hide them

[Jason Thurman]

Jeff, I'm picturing it on a classic Doak 2 "Play it in a scramble and drink a lot of beer" course. One with plenty of guys playing in jeans and t-shirts who grab a cart with their buddies and load it up with refreshments and kick back for a few hours.

Walking distance from cart path to ball gets minimized, which at least would hypothetically improve pace of play. It would especially be a benefit on cart-path-only days. Moreover though, think how much fun it would be to hit a striped drive and watch it sail, hoping it lands on the path and gets a huge turbo boost.

I'm not too much of an architecture snob to admit that I'd have a blast playing a course like that once in a while with the right crowd.

[jeffwarne]

Just returned from Florida where I played a formerly famous resort and tournament course.

It was obvious that cart paths had been added well after the original design.  In ALL cases, the course elected to place them INSIDE the fw bunkers, effectively taking those out of play as a strategic element, and also narrowing previously pretty wide fw from the original RTJ design. (meaning there were a LOT of fw bunkers)

I have seen this so many times before.  In fact, at one of my own courses, paths were added right down the middle of one fw!  As a gca, this galls me.  But, many people must think this is a good idea.  So, my question for pros and supers (or greens chairs) who have added cart paths is, just how does this happen?  Is the golfers desire to be on the fw sooooo strong that they just have to be THAT close to be used?  Is it ever considered as to how that affects the design?

Of, more shortly, WTF?

Were the cartpaths misplaced?
or the bunkers.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I've never seen that and until you initiated this thread, I've never heard of it.  YIKES

Can you name the course so that we can view it on Google Earth ?

It has to be one of the strangest things I've ever heard of.

William Grieve,

Cart paths in South Florida are really a necessity unless you're on sand.
The amount of rain necessitates them if you want to preserve the golf course and allow for membership play.
But, there should be considerable thought given to their location.

I don't recall an architect ever including cart paths with his routing plan, but, perhaps an owner/developer requests them.

Why a club would put them inside the fw instead of trying to hide them is a mystery, especially from the aspect of playability and rulings.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff W - Well, it was RTJ's Inverarry (circa 1971), and most fw had pretty tight fw bunkering on both sides, so I would say, "no". Actually surprising anyone in this group would think the fw was too wide!

Pat, this course seemed to have sandy soils, at least in spots (sadly, much worn turf, below average shape) but as a busy resort/club I am sure it needs paths.

I would say that in the last 20 years, cart paths were standard inclusions on plan, although I recall Rees telling me that he avoids them for liability reasons, so maybe his Dad did too.  Or, in 1971, wall to wall paths were not yet standard.  In any case,  I assumed they were extended from greens and tees later, and that RTJ wouldn't have put them inside his fw bunkers.

I agree its a mystery, but I have seen it often enough to know it happens a lot.  Again, I was hoping to hear from someone like you who had been on club boards how that thought process works.  Do they only consider getting them as handy as possible, regardless of looks?

Because, to my eye, they just look terrible.

[Joe_Tucholski]

At pga west the cart path takes you through fairest bunkers, but its not paved just compressed sand.

[jeffwarne]

At pga west the cart path takes you through fairest bunkers, but its not paved just compressed sand.

When I saw the thread title, I thought that's what Jeff B. was talking about.

Jeff B. I wasn't implying that the fairways were too wide, rather that if the bunkers were more centered, or more in play, rather than bunker left, bunker right, in the rough, it'd be a lot easier to get the paths outside them

[Tom Kelly]

You could just put the cart path right down the middle of the fairway, that would save a lot of walking/driving and give you a little bonus bounce(s) if you happened to hit it straight. 

I can think of a few non-photogenic, inexpensive, "rounds factory" golf courses where this would be VERY popular. I'm not sure it's a bad idea at all for a budget course whose focus isn't on aesthetics. I can probably name five or ten courses that would be improved by it.

Always thought this would be a good idea.
paint them green.
Eliminates tons of walking and stupid mounds built to hide them

Make them out of artificial turf, expensive but they may actually blend in slightly.

Or just walk.