[Niall C]

Bad architecture and potentially a club killer if some bozo happens to hit some other bozo on the wrong side of the head....

Rich

For future reference, what's the right side of the head ?

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Frequently, and with the prevailing wind down, I'll play down the 1st's fairway at Somerset Hills to gain considerable yardage and have a shot at the 9th's green. This strategy, while banned during MGA events (with a declaration of in-course out-of-bounds), shortens the hole by roughly 100-140yds, bypass's the 9th's otherwise wonderful Sahara complex, reintroduces a now strategic bunker that doesn't really play from most conventional approaches, and reduces the opening of the green to an extremely oblique angle. The reward is adequately offset by the risk, but was it designed this way?

Steve,

How about playing over the 3rd green from the first tee.

That was common as was playing down # 1 from # 9.

How about playing down # 5 on # 6 ?
That was done but I think tree planting may have discouraged it

 I've always been fascinated with this question. Did Tilly intend this or was it a result of a few-too-many nips? Maybe Phil Young or Tom Doak have an opinion?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

In regards to the two holes you designed, did you realize in the design process that playing from the adjacent hole may be an issue?

Were there any issues such as land restraints or finances preventing you from changing your design in these cases?

One of the cases was a redesign (Atlantic City CC), and once the owners had approved the plan, the project manager did not want to change it to deal with the problem I'd discovered.  At the time, the plan was for very limited play, and he didn't think it would be an issue; but now, of course, they've turned loose the golfers.  Hopefully the trees we planted will prevent tee shots from using the short-cut.

The other is at a private club which does do a fairly limited amount of play.  I didn't think it would be an issue at first because the hole is not much of a dogleg, so it's not shorter playing into the adjacent fairway ... but it is a wider landing area and a better angle to the green.  There is no room in that case to make a change, but we did add a bunker to discourage people from playing the wrong fairway.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

I know golfers that play down # 18 from # 2 tee at Sebonack in an effort to avoid the left side bunkers.

When you think about it, coming into # 2 green from the far right isn't a bad idea

[JSlonis]

Frequently, and with the prevailing wind down, I'll play down the 1st's fairway at Somerset Hills to gain considerable yardage and have a shot at the 9th's green. This strategy, while banned during MGA events (with a declaration of in-course out-of-bounds), shortens the hole by roughly 100-140yds, bypass's the 9th's otherwise wonderful Sahara complex, reintroduces a now strategic bunker that doesn't really play from most conventional approaches, and reduces the opening of the green to an extremely oblique angle. The reward is adequately offset by the risk, but was it designed this way?

 I've always been fascinated with this question. Did Tilly intend this or was it a result of a few-too-many nips? Maybe Phil Young or Tom Doak have an opinion?

Steve,

I played the 9th hole that way during the NJ Mid Am held there years ago.  I specifically asked if it was allowed and it was.  I don't think the NJSGA officials really thought about it before the matches started and weren't too pleased when they saw me play it that way. For some reason, none of my opponents tried it, they all played it down the proper fairway.  I had a long iron into the green every match.

Actually after the officials first saw me play it that way, they tried to jam the tees as far back and left as they could for subsequent rounds.  I could still hit up and over those trees though. 

[Matthew Rose]

The Hinkle tree story has always amused me greatly, particularly because of the Chinese fire-drill type way in which it was planted overnight, and then because it didn't really work anyway.

One could easily use that incident as a microcosmic metaphor for the USGA in general.

[Jud_T]

When the Women's Open was at Merit Club outside of Chicago in 2000 several of the ladies played the 14th up the 13th fairway.  It took the water out of play although it did leave an awkward approach.  They subsequently planted a stand of trees to discourage this play.

[Steve Lapper]

Pat,

   Who amongst those of us hitting a draw don't aim for the center of the 3rd??  In last year's NJ Mixed Pinehurst a competitor teeing off in front of us hit the stick!! However, that doesn't constitute a "Different Hole's Fairway!" Down #5 for #6 was indeed discouraged by the tree planting and severity of the unkempt "chocolate drops" lining the corridors along the fairway.

Jaime,

   Shocking that the NJSGA folks didn't bother to watch the 2003 Met Am years earlier . Gene Westmoreland, the eminent MGA official quickly and shrewdly banned it after watching a few longer local Ams bomb it down #1 in a practice round.

  Funny story on stroke play the first day: I'm caddying for a good friend Peter Zurkow and we are playing in a group with a Russian guy who is professional hockey player, NYR (his name escapes me). Big guy and hits it a mile, in every direction. On #3, he drives it into a greenside bunker on #1! On #4, he hooks into the 5th's fairway. We get to #9 and he hooks it through the 1st fairway and into the grove of fruit trees behind #3's green. We get an official and he rules no penalty (as there was no intent to use the 1st, let alone hit the fairway!). He manages par from there and we then sentence his caddy to forecaddie every hole forward to give our feet a rest. Sadly, Peter lost in the Quarters to a supremely mature Michael Quagliano despite coming into #15 4 under.

PS...Looking forward to coming down to Tavistock soon to see it with you and Jason!

[David Bartman]

JS

When I played TOC, my caddy had me aim in an adjacent fairway at least 5 times.  He was overjoyed to have someone who could play the course as he saw fit.  The object of the game is to finish each hole in as few strokes as possible, if that means hitting into another fairway, I would guess most would do it. 

[Cameron DeVries]

Playing down the 18th fairway from the 10th tee @ La Purisima is a reasonable play, but dangerous for players coming up the last hole.  I did it when I played events there as a kid, but as I got older I stopped because I didn't want to hurt someone.  The main problem is the hole is a par 4 nearly 470 yards and drives that are hit straight but too well (over 280) risk finding a deep barranca that crosses the fairway.  Playing down 18 doesn't cut off that much yardage, but it does take the hazard out of play off the tee.  I wouldn't mind seeing a tree planted or the fairway bunkering moved to the right, which would both give players more room to navigate on the 10th fairway and discourage the alternate fairway option.  Also, I've seen several players hit it into the 18th fairway off 10 tee unintentionally - if the course got more play it might be more of an issue.  Generally, I find it disappointing when a long par 4 forces you to lay-up off the tee.

[Evan Louden]

#9 at Pumpkin Ridge - Ghost Creek has a creek that crosses the fairway. Depending on the tees you're playing you may have to play short of it. You can take it out of play by hitting to #1 fairway. I do think some trees could easily solve the problem.

[Bruce Bearer]

At the 10th on Old Macdonald, playing down the 6th fairway off the tee is an option to avoid the bunkers in the 10th fairway.  Usually done by long hitters with a south wind.  Not an easy angle coming in to the green but allows for a short iron. 

[David Bartman]

Playing down the 18th fairway from the 10th tee @ La Purisima is a reasonable play, but dangerous for players coming up the last hole.  I did it when I played events there as a kid, but as I got older I stopped because I didn't want to hurt someone.  The main problem is the hole is a par 4 nearly 470 yards and drives that are hit straight but too well (over 280) risk finding a deep barranca that crosses the fairway.  Playing down 18 doesn't cut off that much yardage, but it does take the hazard out of play off the tee.  I wouldn't mind seeing a tree planted or the fairway bunkering moved to the right, which would both give players more room to navigate on the 10th fairway and discourage the alternate fairway option.  Also, I've seen several players hit it into the 18th fairway off 10 tee unintentionally - if the course got more play it might be more of an issue.  Generally, I find it disappointing when a long par 4 forces you to lay-up off the tee.

Cameron - going to UCSB in the 90's I frequently played La P and usually went down 18.  The other advantage was having the general slope of the green flow right to you especially any pin position past the first 3rd of the green. 

[Cameron DeVries]

David,

   Yeah I was thinking about that when I was writing my post - the green is probably slightly wider too when you're coming from the 18th fwy.  The few times I did it in tournament play I remember making 4, so it was definitely not a terrible play.  The main problem is not being able to see the guys coming up 18.  In the last 10 years much of the barranca has been grassed over; I usually think it's an eyesore but in this case now there's a decent chance to hit a longish drive past the creek as long as you hit it down the right side.  The hazard probably wasn't a big deal when the course opened in the 80's, but the equipment is so good now that tons of guys hit it over 300.  Do you remember if the creek crossed the fairway when you were playing at UCSB, or had some of the right side been grassed over even then?  

[Ian Andrew]

Down the 10th fairway to the 9th green at Maidstone was an obvious alternate route in strong wind.



Easier tee shot rewarded and potentially better angle versus a very tight landing area and near impossible approach depending on wind.

Has interior out of bounds now - don't remember this the first time I was there.

[jonathan_becker]

Jonathan,

That's true, especially with certain winds, but the shot is not without risk in terms of blocking trees and wetter rough (plugs)

The more likely play was down # 4 from # 3 until the club prohibited same.

Going down #4 is a great call.  At least with that play you don't have to worry about being blocked out by the inside of the dogleg should one tee off straight away.

[Jeff Bertch]

Supposedly guys blast it down the 14th fw off the 12th tee at Seminole to eliminate the property boundary down the left side.  Plus, there's a clear look down the length of the green from over there.

I've seen many hit it into the 14th fairway...not by strategy but by blocked/fanned drivers from fear of the hazard on the left. Anyone who has played here knows that the green is tough from any angle (especially from a distance). My favorite green complex at Seminole! Good luck finding a yardage over there...no rangefinders allowed!

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Manufacturers' #2 - play down #7 fairway. takes the creek out of play. Recent tree removal allows this.

Philmont South #9 (par 5) - drive towards 18th fairway/tee; then punch across 10th fairway toward 9th green; then bump and run, from a side angle, under the trees onto the green.

[Tom Kelly]

This was discussed about the 13th at Liphook on another thread not so long ago.

If the pin is anywhere but tucked in behind the left bunker the best angle to approach the green whilst playing from a flat lie is from the 12th fairway. Most of the 13th fairway slopes fairly steeply from left to right after about 250 yards-ish. As a reachable par 5 with a long club in your hands going for the green in two it is a tough shot from the canted 13th fairway. Personally I don't think the shot is really on to hit the 12th fairway from the tee but if I find the heather up the left hand side of the 13th fairway, which is fairly often as the left side is the best place to be as it is a touch flatter than the rest of the fairway then I'll pitch out onto the 12th fairway to give myself an easier 3rd. Ben Stephens claims that the play to the 12th from the tee is on and plays the holes that way. If you play short enough from the tee you can gain a flat lie, but you leave yourself a long way into the green. For the shorter hitters not able to reach in two, playing their second out to the 12th is definitely a good option.

A photo from behind the 12th green looking up 13 from James Boon's photo tour of the course.


You can just make out how the 13th fairway drops away and see the flatter 12th fairway.

From the tee the 12th fairway to the left is partially blocked out by trees, unless a big hook/slice for the lefty is attempted. Photo from Sean Arble's photo tour.


From behind the 13th green looking back up 12 and 13, photo from Brian Sheehy's photo tour.


Both Brian's and Sean's photos clearly show the slope of the 13th fairway.

The 15th at Liphook would also be better approached or just plainly shorter if played up the 16th, but the club introduced an internal o.o.b., some new trees and a new greenside bunker to stop the play for H&S reasons. It seems like a rather awkward hole, though not bad it's probably the worst on the course imo.

[Simon Holt]

Unless its into a strong easterly I would always play down the 2nd at North Berwick while playing 17.  The conventional approach to the green means there is little chance of getting anywhere near the pin.  I have birdied 16 far more than 17!!

The approach from the 2nd fairway means you play up the green and get favourable bounces into the pins.  From 17 fairway it just tends to shoot up the back of the green unless you get a very fortunate bounce on the upslope of the bunker.

[Ed Oden]

The 17th at The Olde Farm is a tough hole.  As my good friend Bart Bradley can attest, I think the best way to play it is down the 7th fairway.  Here is the view from the 17th tee with the 17th fairway on the right and the 7th on the left...



For me, going left down the 7th fairway seems far more inviting.  It is wider, takes the fairway bunkers out play and makes the diagonal creek less imposing.  Plus, it opens up the green for the approach, particularly to right pin positions.  Here are the comparative angles of approach from the 7th fairway...



...and from the 17th...

[Brian Joines]

Tom,

In regards to the two holes you designed, did you realize in the design process that playing from the adjacent hole may be an issue?

Were there any issues such as land restraints or finances preventing you from changing your design in these cases?

One of the cases was a redesign (Atlantic City CC), and once the owners had approved the plan, the project manager did not want to change it to deal with the problem I'd discovered.  At the time, the plan was for very limited play, and he didn't think it would be an issue; but now, of course, they've turned loose the golfers.  Hopefully the trees we planted will prevent tee shots from using the short-cut.

The other is at a private club which does do a fairly limited amount of play.  I didn't think it would be an issue at first because the hole is not much of a dogleg, so it's not shorter playing into the adjacent fairway ... but it is a wider landing area and a better angle to the green.  There is no room in that case to make a change, but we did add a bunker to discourage people from playing the wrong fairway.

If I remember correctly, Lost Dunes #12 could fit the bill. When the pin is front left, behind the bunker, the approach angle from #11 fairway would be much easier. I don't think I've ever seen someone do it in my group (intentionally) but with the right pin, it could make sense.

[Tim Martin]

I have seen PGA Tour player's aim right down 3 fairway at TPC River Highlands to get a better angle into 4 green. It is a smart play for guys that can hit it that far.

[Jonathan Stewart]

It happened again. Ben Crane on the 6th at TPC Louisiana fired his tee shot down the 12th fairway. According to Google Earth it cuts off about 30 yards and takes the water completely out of play on the tee shot, although you may end up in the fairway bunker on 12. After he hit his ball he immediately said "Shortcut."

This also perplexed Sir Nick Faldo, who wondered how he even saw that line or if it was even allowed. Crane later posted on twitter "This better not count as a missed fairway. #shortcut"

There are trees to the left of the tee bed and I assume they will position the tees to prevent this from happening for the rest of the tournament. However it is a bit amusing seeing a tour pro aiming 45 degrees left of the fairway.

Here is a link to watch the video.

http://www.cbssports.com/golf/eye-on-golf/25162734/watch-ben-crane-doesnt-like-hole-hes-playing-plays-different-one

[SteveOgulukian]

When hitting your opening tee shot at Bethpage Black, you can intentionally aim right off the tee and land it on the first fairway of the green course.  Although this leaves a bad angle into the green, it is a shortcut.  I've never seen anyone play it that way intentionally but I've seen it happen accidentally.  I have no problem with someone playing up a different hole on a recovery shot when that's your best option but I don't think that it should be done off the tee.  It's not illegal, but neither is coughing during your opponents backswing.

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