Hey Tom Doak! What about 19 holes at Black Mesa?!

[Jay Flemma]

Remember how on this thread about par-sixes:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54825.0.html

Tom Doak said he had about 750 yards and thought about a par-six?

What about 19 holes?  You can probably get two great holes out of the land.  And by that I mean 19 contiguous holes, not the "North Shore Solution" where you only have 18 in play at any given time, (or I guess you could do that too, but the walk would then be an issue...)

Why don't we have more courses with 19 holes? We have some courses where the "loops" of holes are only 7/11 or 8/10.  Would having 19 holes somehow screw-up the GINN handicapping system or something?

[Greg Tallman]

Remember how on this thread about par-sixes:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54825.0.html

Tom Doak said he had about 750 yards and thought about a par-six?

What about 19 holes?  You can probably get two great holes out of the land.  And by that I mean 19 contiguous holes, not the "North Shore Solution" where you only have 18 in play at any given time, (or I guess you could do that too, but the walk would then be an issue...)

Why don't we have more courses with 19 holes? We have some courses where the "loops" of holes are only 7/11 or 8/10.  Would having 19 holes somehow screw-up the GINN handicapping system or something?

If anything golf needs fewer holes, not more.

[V. Kmetz]

I like 19th holes (in and out of the bar room) and I put one in my Armchair Architect III routing (don't copy me now).  When they made a greater appearance in days gone by, they were a short "debt settler' for tied outcomes

The most famous (only) one I know of still exists at Knollwood CC in Elmsford, NY, it's a 110 drop shot from the 18th green to a tiny green set over a pond surrounded by bunkers.  A great hole that usually provokes a definitive result.  Another interesting tidbit about that hole is that another famous edition, the 19th "Bye Hole" at Augusta National (which was about 90-100 yards, uphill, in the current area between 9 and 18) may have been inspired by Knollwood's, as convincing tradition has it that Roberts and Jones came up with the rough idea for AGNC on Knollwood's lovely porch by the putting green and 5th fairway)

cheers

vk

[Jay Flemma]

I'm thinking about something more than a debt settler/little par-3...how about 19 holes. There has to be a way to solve the handicap issue (put the actuaries on it.)

[astavrides]

I'm thinking about something more than a debt settler/little par-3...how about 19 holes. There has to be a way to solve the handicap issue (put the actuaries on it.)

I don't think the handicap issue is a big issue.  But who wants to shoot ~5 strokes over the normal score they would shoot on an 18 hole course?

[Tom_Doak]

Jay:

We built a couple of par-3 19th holes a few years back, at Stone Eagle and at Sebonack.  They both fit into the terrain pretty well and took advantage of a cool green site that wouldn't work for the 18-hole routing.  I had no problem with doing that.  The one at Stone Eagle gets used a fair amount, the one at Sebonack less so, I think.

Those were clearly intended as "extra" holes.  As for just building a 19-hole course where we intend you to play all 19 as part of the plan ... I'm not a big fan of that idea.  I've seen similar things a couple of times, and it always comes across like the architect just couldn't make up his mind what to do.

I'd rather build a par-6 than do that.

The land for the hole at Black Mesa really made more sense as a par-6 anyway ... it was a very long stretch with no obvious green site.  And you're still three holes away from the clubhouse, so breaking it into a short 5 and a par 3 doesn't help much, when you're going to end on a long par 4 for the 19th.

But, I've heard zero about that project for the past four years, so it sounds like the only way it's going to happen is if I'm going to go build it with my own money.  And if I ever decide to do THAT, then you'll get to see a par-6.

[Scott Warren]

Jay,

Barnbougle Lost Farm sort of did this - it has 20 holes including a short "debt settler" next to the clubhouse and a longer par three in the middle of the back nine that fits into the routing and is a bit awkward to avoid.

If someone less beloved than Bill Coore had done that,  I reckon they'd have been pilloried,  and rightly so.

One thing I give Pat Ruddy great credit for at The European Club is that his two extra par threes require no more walking to avoid if you are playing only the main 18.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Amazing how much easier it seems to end up with a 17 or 19 hole course than an 18 hole one...

[Aidan Bradley]

The Tom Weiskopf designed Castiglion del Bosco in Tuscany has 19 holes. The walk from the 18th green to the Clubhouse was such that it permitted the inclusion of a fun little par 3 on the way.  What a great way to settle some bets.

Aidan.

[Jason Topp]

A few Australian courses have an extra par 3 that they use as a spare while work is being done on other parts of the course.  Kingston Heath is a particularly good example but I have a faint recollection that some others exist.

In my mind, I see a lot of benefits if the extra hole is a good one.  The maintenence staff could really focus on another hole while allowing play to continue and potentially there would be maintenence savings if the maintenence staff did not have to wait for groups and dodge flying golf balls while working during the day.  The course could be varied up a bit.  If a hole needed a tweak, the course could still host a full days worth of play while the work was carried out. 

Would the costs associated with building and maintaining an extra par three so far outweigh the benefits that it would only make sense at a high end course not concerned with budget? 

[Howard Riefs]

But, I've heard zero about that project for the past four years, so it sounds like the only way it's going to happen is if I'm going to go build it with my own money.  And if I ever decide to do THAT, then you'll get to see a par-6.

If/When you have that money lying around, I'd rather you put it toward bringing back High Pointe.

The Tom Weiskopf designed Castiglion del Bosco in Tuscany has 19 holes. The walk from the 18th green to the Clubhouse was such that it permitted the inclusion of a fun little par 3 on the way.  What a great way to settle some bets.

Weiskopf did the same with adding a 19th hole at Forest Dunes in Michigan. Same reason, too. Interesting that he faced that issue more than once.

[Bill_McBride]

Jay:

We built a couple of par-3 19th holes a few years back, at Stone Eagle and at Sebonack.  They both fit into the terrain pretty well and took advantage of a cool green site that wouldn't work for the 18-hole routing.  I had no problem with doing that.  The one at Stone Eagle gets used a fair amount, the one at Sebonack less so, I think.

Those were clearly intended as "extra" holes.  As for just building a 19-hole course where we intend you to play all 19 as part of the plan ... I'm not a big fan of that idea.  I've seen similar things a couple of times, and it always comes across like the architect just couldn't make up his mind what to do.

I'd rather build a par-6 than do that.

The land for the hole at Black Mesa really made more sense as a par-6 anyway ... it was a very long stretch with no obvious green site.  And you're still three holes away from the clubhouse, so breaking it into a short 5 and a par 3 doesn't help much, when you're going to end on a long par 4 for the 19th.

But, I've heard zero about that project for the past four years, so it sounds like the only way it's going to happen is if I'm going to go build it with my own money.  And if I ever decide to do THAT, then you'll get to see a par-6.

Or maybe you can take another look at the routing!  Are there any features in that property as cool as Baxter's box canyons?   I really love that course. 

[RJ_Daley]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the orginal Erin Hills, since it will host a US Open in a few years.  The two times I played the course was pre-remodel and I played all 19 holes. Once with Mike Hendren.  But, it was fortuitous they did have the 19 holes when the commentary started to form a consensus against the blind par 3 dell hole, and they ended up bypassing it, and needed the 19th hole (originally a nice par 3) after the old 9th and on the way to the old 10th tee.

Also, here in my NE Wisconsin area, there is a course that Lohman and Benkusky built with a lot of input from the original owner/developer, that had a pair of extra holes.  The two extra holes were an away and back to clubhouse set of par 4s.  They were rather commercial designs, under 400 yards, straight away with some bunkering in FW and greenside.  The idea was that with their siting next to a very good practice range and very good putting-short game work area, that they could be used for extra teaching with an easy loop to go around as many times as one wanted to practice. 

The two extra holes should be seen as the two hole loop east of the teeing line of range and practice green:

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=44.37295,-88.528068&spn=0.00283,0.005718&t=h&z=17

This is a decent golf course, that I once looked into buying in wake of first owner bankruptcy.  The price was right, but there were other problems too big for me to justify betting the farm on.  It was one of the most unusual development series of blunders I have ever come across.  If it were half the distance from my house, I might strongly consider getting a membership unlimitted play yearly pass there.  It is a fun course to play. It is currently called "Eagle Creek". 

[Jay Flemma]

Scott, I hear marvelous things about that course.  Great job by everyone involved.  Interesting theory you have that when some archies do it, they get a free pass so to speak, but others...but I also wonder if they way it's done or presented might also be different?  Perhaps the 19th hole (or par-six or any deviation form what we define as the norm) shouldn't be too full of itself, at least in advertising.

I still haven't heard any real substantive objection to 19 holes (as opposed to a debt settler. okay so a guy shoots 77 instead of 72...but owuld he add, "but that's good for a 19 hole golf course!"?

[Scott Warren]

Jay,

The circumstance where I see a par six working is on a course where individual hole pars aren't listed, but the total par for the course is.

That way, each person can project what they wish on the status of that hole.

Someone who thinks the concept of a par six is stupid can consider it a ballbreaker par five, while someone else can decide it requires them four shots to reach, so the par is six, if they're comfortable with the idea.

That way, Course X doesn't have a par six as such, it just has a 700-yard hole.

[Paul Jones]

Lost Farm has 20 holes.

[Paul Jones]

The Tom Weiskopf designed Castiglion del Bosco in Tuscany has 19 holes. The walk from the 18th green to the Clubhouse was such that it permitted the inclusion of a fun little par 3 on the way.  What a great way to settle some bets.

Aidan.

WOW - That picture looks fantastic.  Is the course as good ?

[Jay Flemma]

Weiskopf's Forest Dunes was quite a lot of fun, that back 9 reminds me of Mike Strantz!

Yes, Bill, those box cantons are cool...I love the greens even more!

[Mark Pearce]

Seaton Carew and Northumberland both have 22 holes.  Northumberland uses two different combinations in Winter and Summer.  It would be fair to say that the Winter 4 holes are fairly mundane.

[Jud_T]

Forest Creek South has a really good 19th hole that fits in perfectly.