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Patrick_Mucci

Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« on: February 23, 2013, 05:30:57 PM »
the 19th hole at Sebonack ?

Tom Doak:   No fair answering before the 25th reply.

The 19th hole at Sebonack is unique in that it plays back, across the 1st hole to a green that sits fairly close to the 1st green.

Like the 1st green, the 19th green is perched right on the edge of the bluff overlooking Peconic Bay.

The teeing area is between the 18th green and the clubhouse

The 19th hole is oriented toward the NE whereas the approach to the 1st green is oriented toward the NW

If it was part of the original design, would it not have crisscrossed the 1st hole ?

So, was it part of the original design or an afterthought ?
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Mark Saltzman

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2013, 05:35:01 PM »
I'll say part of the original design.  Knowing nothing, I'll say that Doak/Nicklaus always thought that greensite was amazing (which it is) but just could not make it fit into the routing.  They decided early on to build a green there.
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2013, 07:48:55 AM »
How many diverse answers do you expect? Aye, Nay, DK, NG, Practices Good Hygiene. That's about it.
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Adam Clayman

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2013, 08:22:27 AM »
Who cares? and, Why?

Was it part of Doak's original routing he did on the topo map?

Was it part of Jn's originally submitted routing?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 09:58:32 AM by Adam Clayman »
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom_Doak

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2013, 10:10:30 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on February 23, 2013, 05:30:57 PM
Tom Doak:   No fair answering before the 25th reply.

If you get to 25 replies, I'll be happy to answer.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2013, 09:03:33 AM »
Quote from: Ronald Montesano on February 24, 2013, 07:48:55 AM
How many diverse answers do you expect? Aye, Nay, DK, NG, Practices Good Hygiene. That's about it.


Ron,

I thought, with the incredible brain power of those lurking and participating that they'd back up whatever answer they provided with the reasoning behind their answer

If the answer is so limited and so simple, why didn't you provide one ?

Are lurkers and participants afraid to provide their opinion for fear that they might be wrong ? ;D
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Mark Saltzman

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2013, 09:04:42 AM »
Patrick, I gave my answer.

I'm not worried about being wrong... I usually am  ;D
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Michael Moore

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2013, 09:29:36 AM »
Pat -

Given that this hole was born out of the owner's desire to have a green in that particular corner even though it didn't fit well within the routing, I'm going with afterthought.


This thread reminds me of one the great comedy sketches of all time, the Seinfeld episode when Kramer becomes Moviephone.

KRAMER: Ah, you’ve selected . . . Brown-Eyed Girl? If this is correct, press one.

(George looks baffled)

KRAMER: Why don’t you just tell me the name of the movie you’ve selected?

GEORGE: Chunnel?

KRAMER: To find the theater nearest you, please enter your five digit zip code, now.

(George enters his zip code)

KRAMER: Why don’t you just tell me where you want to see the movie?
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2013, 09:35:56 AM »
Michael,

I don't know the answer.

I'm thinking about it based on the configuration and location of the hole.

When we approach # 25 I'll offer my thoughts, right or wrong
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Michael Moore

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2013, 09:49:34 AM »
Pat -

The hole in question was Garret Bodington's idea and the two architects never looked at it together during the design process. I'm going with afterthought.
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Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Adam Clayman

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2013, 10:02:49 AM »
After thought vote here too.

Evidence;
1) Here's a Wardian thread with no mention of it.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,25920.0.html

2) It's on record the owner has continually tweaked the GC.
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2013, 10:07:18 AM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on February 25, 2013, 09:03:33 AM
Quote from: Ronald Montesano on February 24, 2013, 07:48:55 AM
How many diverse answers do you expect? Aye, Nay, DK, NG, Practices Good Hygiene. That's about it.

so limited and so simple

There's your answer.
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~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

V. Kmetz

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2013, 10:49:54 AM »
PM,

To parse, I believe it was an "Afterthought" because I do not believe an extra-pleasure feature took primacy before a solid routing could be identified.  But once the 18 hole routing and the necessities of the clubhouse and other faciilties were incorporated, in whatever stage of design, the feature was able to be availed.

This could even be true even if there was a "client demand" of a 19th hole...but its ultimate actual placement wouldn't, I do not believe, make the 18 hole course slave to its requirement.

In my Armchair Contest entry, I knew I wanted a 19th hole, and have placed one, but I knew it would likely reveal itself (being a small acreage) once the mass was settled.

cheers

vk

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"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Josh Tarble

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2013, 01:12:05 PM »
I would guess it was an afterthought part of the original design.  I'm guessing the greensite was found during the beginning part of construction but could not work in any of the routings.  When Tom and Jack saw that it could be used as a bonus hole, they decided to do so.
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Alex Lagowitz

Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2013, 02:57:14 PM »
I remember reading/hearing that the client asked for a 19th hole, perhaps even after Doak advised against it -- Tom correct me if I'm wrong here

But it does seem like it would be an afterthought considering its location of being so close to the 1st.
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2013, 03:01:30 PM »
Pat
Didn't Tom recently say that if you had been reading more you'd find the answer.
I believe Tom has descriptively answered this question before too.

Maybe the reason people don't post more is because there are a million other things to read buried within these pages.

Read more, post less.
Exactly like listen more, speak less.

Peace
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Bruce Katona

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2013, 03:31:37 PM »
What happens when a match is all square at the end of 18?  Putt off, chip off, etc.  This was designed to settle bets when matches are AS or to settle a bet made in the grill room after much rehydrating after a round.  Just my $0.02.
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Jason Connor

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2013, 03:40:14 PM »
Just to help us get to 25, I predict "part of the original design"

Where original design is loosely interpreted since all sorts of things change during construction.



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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2013, 04:38:21 PM »
I'm going to go with neither. 

The hole is an accident, resulting from the issues caused by having two teams working on the same site.

Really just adding in an answer so we get to 25.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2013, 05:15:06 PM »
Quote from: Mike Nuzzo on February 25, 2013, 03:01:30 PM
Pat
Didn't Tom recently say that if you had been reading more you'd find the answer.

I believe he did, on a topic specific issue.

I believe Tom has descriptively answered this question before too.

Then why has no one supplied the answer you feel is so obvious.

Maybe the reason people don't post more is because there are a million other things to read buried within these pages.

That's an interesting theory.

Read more, post less.
Exactly like listen more, speak less.


Does that mean that if I stop creating/posting interesting threads that you'll pick up the slack.

In the last 500 threads, you created just one (1) thread.

Not exactly inspiring or reassuring  ;D
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Matthew Petersen

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2013, 05:31:15 PM »
Quote from: Jason Connor on February 25, 2013, 03:40:14 PM
Just to help us get to 25, I predict "part of the original design"

Where original design is loosely interpreted since all sorts of things change during construction.





I would second this.

Not that they set out to get 19 holes, necessarily, but that it was conceived and added well earlier than what would rightfully be called "an afterthought." But I am only guessing.
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2013, 05:54:04 PM »
Thank you Pat
It must have been a very important one thread that I started...  :)

Pat
I'll post more if you read more (post less)
:)
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jeffwarne

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2013, 06:04:04 PM »
It was written about here, but I don't remember exactly.
In the interest of getting to 25 I'll take a crack.

They identified what a great greensite it was, but were concerned about shelling balls down onto NGLA with people playing #1 too much down the right and toward that spot, so they located #1 green where it is.
Not wanting to abandon the great spot, and unable to fit the greensite into the routing after locating #1 where it is, they simply made it the bye hole.
Hard to say when "original design" starts and afterthought begins, but I'd say they had identified the bye greensite area, PRIOR to deciding to build #1 where it is.

or not ;D
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Pete_Pittock

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2013, 06:15:17 PM »
Looking at the birdseye view map on Bing Sebonack is in the consruction mode and the green and bunkering is contemporary with the other construction IF it is the green very near the building on NGLA. I have been to neither. Getting it closer to 25, Tom.
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Tom_Doak

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Re: Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2013, 06:23:53 PM »
24, because I'm bored
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