Was it an afterthought or part of the original design when they created

[Mark Saltzman]

25, because I'm curious.

[Alex Miller]

25, because I'm curious.

26, because I can.

[Tom_Doak]

Pat -

The hole in question was Garret Bodington's idea and the two architects never looked at it together during the design process. I'm going with afterthought.

This is the correct answer.

Mr. Pascucci always looked at that little corner and wanted to get a green site there for the first hole.  But, then the hole would have been playing AROUND the cart barn at National, which we didn't think was safe, so we located the first green where we did.

I guess Michael kept thinking about it, wanting to use that corner for something, and Garret came up with the idea of the 19th hole, which he showed me one afternoon on a walk-through.  I liked the way it lined up with a feature across the bay -- I think it's Cow Neck -- so we agreed to build the hole.  Jim Urbina and George Waters built the green.  I don't know if Jack ever looked at it, honestly.

[Tom_Doak]

P.S.  I know that Mr. Pascucci has mentioned to Mike Davis, more than once, that it sure would be interesting to use that green as an alternate green for the hole for the Women's Open.  I wouldn't be surprised to see it.  It is a very interesting green, and the current first green has a limited number of hole locations. 

Plus, the good news is if someone hits it o.b. onto National during the Women's Open, it won't be my fault.

[Ronald Montesano]

Wouldn't the women come at it from an angle that dooms the 19th to be a very shallow target, as a replacement first green?

[Alex Miller]

When was the last time 19 greens were used in a U.S. Open?

That's 19 instead of 18. 

[Tom_Doak]

Wouldn't the women come at it from an angle that dooms the 19th to be a very shallow target, as a replacement first green?

I think most of them would hit safely left off the tee, so the angle wouldn't be awful.  The longer they could hit it, the better the angle.

But, on further thought, I doubt it will happen.  The way they will rope off the course for galleries, nobody would get within 100 yards of that green to watch them putt out, and it would be a real hassle to change it for one day of the event.

[JWL]

Allow me to chime in a little here.   The early routings indeed had that location as an amazing green site.   It could have also worked in TD's final routing, but as has been noted, it was very close to the parking lot of the National pro shop.   In fact, part of National's parking area was actually on Sebonack property.    Pascucci, not wanting to agitate National members with balls potentially landing in the parking lot and being dangerous, decided he wanted to move the green away to avoid even the possible errant shot....and be sensitive to National membership...which he did with every decision.    When the range was moved over closer  to the property edge, trees were left on the left side , and realizing that the more dangerous errant shot would be right....away from the National property.   It was interesting that when the first tee was being staked out, it kept getting further and further from the National property because an enormous number of balls were all around the original tee location, coming off the first tee at National.
Tom is the one that made the call on the 19th hole location being on that terrific green site....and that is the first I had heard of his explanation coming from Garrett.
However, the idea of a 19th hole to settle bets was always something Pascucci wanted, and it was designed in all the various routings prior to TD's final routing.
In regard to the present location of the first green, I am sure TD will remember that he had constructed a green closer to the present 18th green, and that on a a late visit, as the first hole was one of the last completed, I actually suggested during a discussion about whether that was the best location for the first green, that the green be moved right approximately 20-30 yds., as I recall, and TD constructed a new green in the new location, that is there today.  The move all had to do with the natural backdrop of the green, for the  water view, and not anything to do with the merit of the green already constructed.
The resulting 19th hole is a terrific hole and works well, from what I understand.

[Matthew Rose]

When was the last time 19 greens were used in a U.S. Open?

That's 19 instead of 18. 

Has it ever happened?

Does #11 on the Composite at Brookline count, even though one is used as fairway?

[Patrick_Mucci]

JWL & Tom,

The 19th hole served as the Shootout hole on the two day member guest.

It works very well.

The approach shot is dicey, the bunkering very effective and the configuration and undulation of the green, challenging.

The hole reminds me a little of the short downhill, sharp dogleg 6th hole at LACC North

[Mark Hissey]

Tom, do you recall the conversation about how it would be no more dangerous than how the 4th hole at Pennard crosses the 3rd?

The area in question was always a great one. We'd had a 19th hole on previous routings but the whole placing of it as it is now seemed to make so much sense. You could walk right off 18 and smash the ball down into the corner. I love it. Previously, that area had been a volleyball court, basketball court, and barbecue area for the union. It was also where the remnants of Charles Sabin's private road to National was.

A few other interesting notes about that general area. On the 18th fairway beyond the Coffin bunker was a huge great lawn where Mrs Sabin held large anti-prohibition parties. I knew nothing of them until I saw Ken Burns special on prohibition. It's strange to see these still of huge garden parties on what is now the second landing area of the 18th. In addition, right next to it was a lawn tennis court where Dwight Davis of Davis Cup fame often played when he was courting Mrs Sabin. Finally, the large and rather bedraggled tree on the left side of the first fairway was a tree where all of the boy caddies would congregate in the 30's while waiting to be called for a loop. CB Mac and Charles Sabin apparently called on them frequently.

There hasn't been much talk about using the green as an alternate green for the Championship. I just don't see it myself; the angle is just too acute in my opinion. But you never know because Mike Davis likes to try new things.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark, Tom & JWL,

If you moved the tee up wouldn't that help offset the issue of the angle into that green ?

[jeffwarne]

There hasn't been much talk about using the green as an alternate green for the Championship. I just don't see it myself; the angle is just too acute in my opinion. But you never know because Mike Davis likes to try new things.   
[/quote]


The 19th green is a really cool area and a great addition to a great course.
using it was an alternate green for hole #1 is a great idea...... for a Member-Guest.

For the United States Open Championship, not so mucn.
Practice rounds are long enough ( slower than drying paint), now a player's got to prepare for two different approaches and angles on the first hole?
Then attempt to cross awkwardly from the alternate green while a player may well be approaching the original green?

[Tom_Doak]

Practice rounds are long enough ( slower than drying paint), now a player's got to prepare for two different approaches and angles on the first hole?
Then attempt to cross awkwardly from the alternate green while a player may well be approaching the original green?

Jeff:

Well, they've already changed the routing so it will be the ninth hole for the championship, and not the first.

[jeffwarne]

Practice rounds are long enough ( slower than drying paint), now a player's got to prepare for two different approaches and angles on the first hole?
Then attempt to cross awkwardly from the alternate green while a player may well be approaching the original green?

Jeff:

Well, they've already changed the routing so it will be the ninth hole for the championship, and not the first.

So 2 is what hole now? 10? or 1?

[cary lichtenstein]

24, because I'm bored

Because Doak couldn't resist himself, seeing the possibilities of a great green there, one night after a few too many, he went to home depo, rented some flood lights, fired up the bulldozer, and did his thing. Jack knew nothing about it, Doak denied doing it, said it must have been the work of Charleston Heston, throwing the tablets down from up above

[JWL]

TD
Do you have any information on the rationael for starting on 2 and having 1 be the 9th in the Open?
A couple of things come to mind....a wowser of a first hole, a hike from the practice range to new first tee (2nd hole), and a hike from 8th hole (original 9th hole) to the new 9th (the original 1st hole)
I guess I am assuming that would be the new routing, but they I guess they could easily start on 4 and finish on 3 at the clubhouse.
I can't figure out the rationale, other than just trying to do something different.

[Keith OHalloran]

JWL,
I read a story (and posted it here somewhere)  that they changed the routing because they wanted to make 1 a drive able par 4, but did not want to start the round that way.

[Mark Hissey]

Mark, Tom & JWL,

If you moved the tee up wouldn't that help offset the issue of the angle into that green ?

Not really Pat. You'd still have the acute angle. I suppose it could theoretically make the hole drivable, but the tee would look odd and we'd have to clear a lot of vegetation on the right of the fairway near the 19th green. We had considered it seriously, but it just doesn't work.

As it is, it is going to be a great looking hole for TV which for the Championship alone will close out the front nine.

[Mark Hissey]

Practice rounds are long enough ( slower than drying paint), now a player's got to prepare for two different approaches and angles on the first hole?
Then attempt to cross awkwardly from the alternate green while a player may well be approaching the original green?

Jeff:

Well, they've already changed the routing so it will be the ninth hole for the championship, and not the first.

So 2 is what hole now? 10? or 1?

Our second hole will be Championship #1. There was some concern that it was going to be too difficult as an opening hole, but in balance, it was thought that it would be a good decision to play the front 9 as 2-9, 1.

[Tom_Doak]

TD
Do you have any information on the rationael for starting on 2 and having 1 be the 9th in the Open?
A couple of things come to mind....a wowser of a first hole, a hike from the practice range to new first tee (2nd hole), and a hike from 8th hole (original 9th hole) to the new 9th (the original 1st hole)
I guess I am assuming that would be the new routing, but they I guess they could easily start on 4 and finish on 3 at the clubhouse.
I can't figure out the rationale, other than just trying to do something different.

Jim:

Nobody asked my opinion, either.

I suspect it's mostly because the grandstand space around the 18th green will be limited, and having the traffic of players going from #1 to #2 through that space would complicate it, whereas the traffic patterns from the clubhouse to the 2nd tee and the 1st green to the 10th tee will avoid the area around the 18th green ... even though the walks will be longer.

I have to confess I never thought at all about gallery space around the 18th hole when we were building the course.  It's not usually a factor on the courses we build.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom, Mark & JIM,

I think # 18, a terrific hole, but, in terms of tournament viewing, it has the same drawback that #'s 18 at NGLA and Doral have in that one flank is a water hazard.

And at Sebonack and NGLA the falloff is rather dramatic and dangerous

Hence viewing is compromised, although at Sebonack you have a nice slope leading up to the clubhouse starting at the green.

It will be interesting to see what the green speeds will be.

[JWL]

Patrick.
I agree on 18 being a great finishing hole..one of my favorite finishers anywhere....Mike certainly made a great decision there, and I love the green that TD constructed.   We all loved it at first sight.

TD.
I think what you suggested is probably the best reason for the decision to play 1 as 9.   I'm not so sure that I wouldn't have given the idea of 4 as the starter and 3 as the front nine finisher, some consideration....maybe they did.   I'm not a big fan of par 3 starters, but it sure is a good hole and a real tester right at the start.   And 3 for women is probably going to be a real tough hole imho, due to the green elevation, and that bunker would really be fun to watch women deal with that much depth.   I'm sure they never see anything like that before.   I'll never forget Mike's shot  out and on after his bunker lesson.   He sure made it look easy and I know it isn't.    One of two of my favorite bunkers on the course...the other being the right bunker in the 2nd landing area on 18  near the big tree.   Both are professional bunkers   

[Patrick_Mucci]

JWL,

Recovery from the bunker on # 3 is difficult and a lot depends on hole location.

I like the idea of # 3 being the finishing hole.

Didn't Westchester start on a par 3 for the PGA Tour for many years ?

[V. Kmetz]

Yes it did...the par 3 10th hole (as members played it)...flat ground 190-195 yards, wavy green, surrounded by deep bunkers.

cheers

vk