Driving Distance Stats

[Gary_Nelson]

DMoriarty,

I'll concede the distance gap issue has its problems.  However, consumers like the idea they can hit balls farther, straighter, higher, etc.  Technology advances keep us interested and grow the game.

Bifuricating (sp?) the rules at the highest level and taking away the long hitting pro doesn't attract any more spectators or help the PGA Tour.

Distance gaps within foursomes and matches weren't caused by titanium club heads and ProV1's.  I'm guessing there were 50 yard distance gaps back when people used hickory shafts.  

I guess I'm not too concerned with driving distances for the rest of us until a significant portion of the golfing public gets bored with overpowering the course.  

Gary

[DMoriarty]

If one player is a 220 hitter and the other a 250 and they are both ten handicappers, they can play the same tee. It's obvious that the shorter man is a better player! The trouble starts when the carry off the tee prevents the shorter man from reaching the fairway.

Bob,  I think we are in total agreement here.  Two 10s should play the same tees and very often they can, but more and more are running into the "trouble" you mention in your last sentence (which I took the liberty of bolding.)  As the gap between long and short grows it is more and more difficult to design courses that play well for different length hitters, especially if these different length hitters have similar handicaps.  

Think of all of the 10+ handicappers who sometimes smack the ball well beyond your ball (and mine for that matter.)  Sure you are a better golfer than the lot of them, but play a match against them on a course set up to challenge the long hitter and you may lose some of the holes simply because you are unable to reach the fairways or eve put a ball into play.  

[DMoriarty]

DMoriarty,

I'll concede the distance gap issue has its problems.  However, consumers like the idea they can hit balls farther, straighter, higher, etc.  Technology advances keep us interested and grow the game.

Bifuricating (sp?) the rules at the highest level and taking away the long hitting pro doesn't attract any more spectators or help the PGA Tour.

Distance gaps within foursomes and matches weren't caused by titanium club heads and ProV1's.  I'm guessing there were 50 yard distance gaps back when people used hickory shafts.  

I guess I'm not too concerned with driving distances for the rest of us until a significant portion of the golfing public gets bored with overpowering the course.  

Gary,  I didnt advocate curtailing the technology, nor did I mention bifurcation.  In fact I offered no solution whatsoever.  I thought we were talking about whether golf architecture was being hurt by the distance boom and the corresponding growth of the distance gap?  I'd be glad to discuss possible solutions but think our conversation would be much more productive if we first cleary identify the problem, if one exists.  

Generally and with this issue in particular, I think it very important to seperately evaluate the problem and the possible solutions.  Otherwise we might end up with a situation where our pessimism regarding possible solutions leads us to underestimate the seriousness of the problem, if one exists.  

For example, I wonder if your belief that there is no workable solution seems to be driving your decision not to be too concerned about the increasing distance gap?  

One more thing . . . sure there have always been gaps in distance, but I think you are kidding yourself if you think they have stayed constant since hickory shafts!

[Gary_Nelson]

DMoriarty,

I was exaggerating a bit much with the hickory shaft comment.  I'll take back my remark.

I certainly think that golf architecture is being hurt by the distance increase.  Some of the best players are playing just Driver/SW and taking some fun out of the game.

On the other hand, my circle of golfers rarely bets or plays matches.  We play for score and that's all.  Matches, handicaps, 2-strokes a side, etc... not part of the equation.  The long and short hitter co-exist happily. I thought this was the norm in the publinx world... my "average player" model I referred to earlier.  Folks like me don't play the same course all the time and don't notice that we are carrying hazards we couldn't carry in the old days.

This issue is probably a more pertinent one for private club members who play a lot of matches amongst themselves.  Since under 30% of the courses are private, this issue may not be as critical for the other 70%.

I don't have an architecture solution either.  I just think that new technology is good for the bad players... helping them get those "extra 10 yards" off the tee.  Keeps 'em coming back for more.  

Also, I say "so what" if the pro's hit it 300 - 350 (or 400?) yards.  It's good for the PGA tour and its spectators who marvel at huge tee shots and wedge shots that spin back.  The reaction just isn't the same for a cut shot 2-iron.

Gary

[Joe Hancock]

Gary,

The "so what if they hit 300...etc." comment is somewhat akin to what basketball has with the slam dunk, I suppose. It's all about showmanship, ratings, and ultimately money. It's a dumbing down of the sport to just let the pro's entertain us with booming drives and spinning wedges.

What's bothering to me is I can't really argue with you, from the masses perspective. Some day, the cut 2 iron will be a distant memeory.....

Joe

p.s. We should meet in Lansing or so and do a golf gig soon...

[DMoriarty]

Gary,

I am also a publinx golfer.  Sounds like the two of us represent opposite ends of the publinx perspective.  I play most my golf at one course and almost always compete in some sort of match, usually adjusted to handicap and usually there is a bet of some sort (usually for miniscule stakes.)  In fact, almost everyone I know who golfs regularly does so in a matchplay format or one of its many derivatives.  When I occassionally play golf at some of my old haunts I am amazed at how short the long holes seem now, and I am not a big hitter.

As for the pros hitting it 300 or 350, as I said above, it isnt just the pros, it is a wide variety of golfers with a wide variety of handicaps.

I agree with you that it would be detrimental to the game to suddenly turn off all the technological advances which might help the bad players,  but as I noted above it is not the bad players who are benefiting from technology, at least not relative to the long hitters.

Also, I think you might be relying on a false premise.  The equipment manufacturers would have us believe that a limit on distance will hurt all golfer proportionally.  There is absolutely no reason this has to be the case.  If the manufacturers can build balls that provide relatively more benefit to fast swingers,  they can do the same for slow hitters.  So why not cap the top and let the slower swingers catch up for a while so we can get the distance gap back to where it makes sense?  

And I am not talking about bifurcation.  A single rule could be drafted so as to still allow slower hitters to continue to benefit from technology, within reason.  

Bottom line, I do care about the distance gap if only for architecture's sake.  

Regards,

David

[Dennis_Harwood]

DMoriarty-- Great points--

The arguement I have never understood regarding "well if everyone can hit it longer, who is hurt", is that the distance increases are  by percentage--

If I can drive 200 and another player can drive it 230 and new designed implements and balls give us 10% more yardage I have lost 3 yards in the equation-- Eventually the longer hitter is playing a totally different course--

Of course the new technology even makes it worse because the thin faced drivers and thin covered balls that will compress at a certain swing speed give a 25% boost to the 115 MPH swing speed and about a 5% increase to the 90 MPH group--

It used to be that skills with long irons acquired by short hitters could level the playing field with the big hitters and their short irons-- But if the courses are streched to accomadate the 300 yd plus tee shots you have eliminated those in the 240 and less range from even reaching a majority of the greens in regulation(and 10 years ago a 240 hitter was an average driver on the Tour)--

Its difficult to compete when one golfer is playing 14 par 4s and his opponent 14 par 5s-

[Gary_Nelson]

I guess I have to come back to a question I raised earlier.  How far do people really hit the ball?  Not Ricky Barnes.  Not Phil Mickelson.   Real people.   Thousands of 'em.    

I would support dialing back the ball or creating an advantage exclusively for the slower swingers if it was shown that over 50% of male golfers are hitting it "too long".  It's tough to draw a line without first knowing the stats.  Does anyone have access to these kind of numbers?

Gary