[Bill_McBride]

Photos or diagrams and rationale please.  Credit to Mark B for this thread...

My favorite among many:

Cuscowilla #5.  Coore & Crenshaw seem to have one of these great little holes on every one of their courses, although different strategies may apply.

At Cuscowilla's fifth there is a giant bunker dead center off the tee.  I have not played with anyone who can carry this bunker.  To the right lie the Elysian Fields, 50 yards of open fairway.  That's the safe play, but from there the green is set up all wrong for a wedge or bump and run approach.  The green is quite narrow and crowned, and the axis is front left to back right.  Handsome looking shots are routinely shed away from the green into a chipping area back right where it continues to be tough to get on the green, yet alone close.

To the left of the central bunker is a sliver of fairway.  If you can safely reach this tiny zone between the bunker and pretty deep rough, the reward is a flick of a pitch down the axis of the green.

Many players I have seen walk off the fifth green shaking their heads, mumbling about that little hole that looked so easy on the card!

The tee shot


The green from Nirvana


The 12th is another great drive and pitch but saved for later.

[Matthew Petersen]

I will nominate another C&C hole, from their Saguaro course at WeKoPa. I'm borrowing the photo from Ran's review.



As you can tell, the hole sits on a sidehill, left high to right low. 336 from the tips and all the other tees are sub-300 yards so it can be quite tempting to take a rip at it. Further adding to this temptation is all that room left of the green. Take aim at the left edge of the green and rip away.

But left of the green is treacherous indeed. It's not easy to see in the photo, but the green is slightly raised above the level of that collection/chipping area to the left. So any chip, flip, or Texas wedge from left of the green has to get over that ridge ... before everything runs away, steeply, and with little incentive to stop before reaching the extremely deep bunkers right of the green.

While the back of the green is significantly wider than the front portion, it's still tricky. There's a very small flattish tier in the back left, but the tier is steep and still not easy to hold a shot on--everything falls away from it.

So, perhaps a layup is the order of the day. A smooth 200-yd shot will leave you safely short of the bunker you see pinching in from the left, which is further out than it looks (about 270 from the far back tees). But even this decision requires care. The angle and steep slope of the green from left to right will play havoc with even a little pitch shot in, particularly if you're coming in from the left side of the fairway (the side which is the far more appealing option to hit to from the tee).

The best lay-up is one that challenges the treacherous right side. The bunker over there is about 230 from the back tee and the desert encroaches as well, all the more so due to the slope of the entire fairway along that sidehill.

So, plenty tricky and plenty of places the player can end up where bogey or far worse can get into play ... but still just a little hole that presents a potential birdie opportunity to a player who hits brave and/or quality shots.

Love this little hole.

(And as with Bill, I wouldn't be overly shy about nominating another from this same course.)

[RJ_Daley]

Of course I'll have to go with my predictable favorite course, Wild Horse and go with 15th hole there.  The boys who built it were coming off of C&C work at Riviera, and say they were inspired by #10 there.  

Using the WH website: tee ball with challenge to carry the set of staggered bunkers straight away on a bee line to the green, up the left side of FW.  Native and a large bunker right side of FW to catch the pushed or sliced ball, but a nice backside slope that if carried puts you in the front row- but a very hard pitch over a near side green bunker.  The green is very slender and at angle - same as 10 Riviera.  And, a straight on pitch to that green better have some real crisp hit spin to stop from going in the rear of green bunker. Given the consistent firm fast sand based lightening fast greens, holding that green is never a given if not hit perfectly.


Closer to the green:


This view closer to the green shows the angle where that long deep ball that you hit challenging the left side FW bunkers will clear and get a big firm and fast roll right up to the left opening of the green.  Even I (not a long hitter) have hit the ocassional satisfying draw that one can catch on rare ocassions, and ended up clearing the left side bunkers easily, and getting the great roll down a slight slope that WH is known for, ending up right into the open left side mouth of that green.  But, the putt from off the green or chip, is no bargain due to a turtle back and steep right to left cant with internal contours, of that slender green.  

I can't find photos of the 7th hole at Axeland and Proctor's nearby Bayside.   But it is another short 4 of incredible design variation, that you never will get tired of playing.  It is a hole I could play 50 times in a row and not be bored.

http://binged.it/XunlpT

Looking at above birdseye view, the tee ball placed to left of centerline FW bunker and green mouth bunker can be about 230-250 yards.  The green opening bunker is modertely deep with steep sod wall to clear to get on the green.  A big drive can try to run onto the green from left or right of that green mouth bunker (right side is better but harder)  The green has a thumb print from the 11 o'clock position causing a ridge in the green running from 7 o'clock to 2 o'clock.  The left rear bunker is a significant grass bunker, maybe one of the best most effective grass bunkers I have seen.  Native up the right side of FW along with a bunker there, with slope down into it, yet a native or bunker play that is reasonable enough to make wedge plays to the green if you find the ball sliced up that side.  This is truly a first class short par 4.

[Scott Szabo]

RJ,

I'd have to agree with you about Wild Horse #15.  It's one of the best holes I've ever played. 

[Garland Bayley]

What's your definition of short par 4?
Are you talking drivable?
Driver wedge?
Driver short iron?

[Bill_McBride]

What's your definition of short par 4?
Are you talking drivable?
Driver wedge?
Driver short iron?

350 and under.  The "drivable" is vague.  I can't drive the 280 yard par 4 on my home course.  One of our better players made an ace two weeks after the new course opened.

So I'm thinking 350 and under so it's driver short iron at most for all, unless you choose to lay up shorter (like Tiger did at #15 Dove Mountain, 318 yards.  What was that all about?).   What I'm really interested in is holes where there are numerous options, not just bomb and gouge.

[Jeff Tang]

The sixth at Pacific Dunes is right up there for me.  It's such a tough hole for its length with how the green is angled and the fall offs around the green.  There is definitely strategy there off the tee and also on the second.   The hole is manageable if you execute properly, but if you don't you'll pay a price.

I've been to Bandon twice. Oddly after my first visit I didn't think the sixth was all that difficult.  After my second visit I now find the hole to be quite vexing.  It might be one of those holes where the more you play it and find out what you shouldn't do that the hole gets more in your head.

[hhuffines]

The third on Pinehurst #2, the 8th on Forest Creek South, and the 16th on Pacific Dunes.  I can't post pics but Ran has great photos and descriptions in his Course by Country write ups.   Cheers Bill!  Hart

[Matthew Petersen]

What's your definition of short par 4?
Are you talking drivable?
Driver wedge?
Driver short iron?

350 and under.  The "drivable" is vague.  I can't drive the 280 yard par 4 on my home course.  One of our better players made an ace two weeks after the new course opened.

So I'm thinking 350 and under so it's driver short iron at most for all, unless you choose to lay up shorter (like Tiger did at #15 Dove Mountain, 318 yards.  What was that all about?).   What I'm really interested in is holes where there are numerous options, not just bomb and gouge.

Slightly OT but just to answer your question re: #15 in the WGC yesterday. Tiger was far from the only player to lay up there yesterday, though in the history of the event yesterday might be the first time the pros ever used that strategy. But it was cold and with some wind in their face and (a) making the carry wasn't certain and (b) even if you did, no one was really going to be able to get it up by the green. You really have to be able to clear the pot bunker abut 30 yds short of the green to make going for it a worthwhile endeavor. Otherwise you're in that pot bunker, which is just an extraordinarily difficult shot, or you're at an awkward angle behind the bunker and hill on the left with an uncomfortable-length pitch.

[Bill_McBride]

What's your definition of short par 4?
Are you talking drivable?
Driver wedge?
Driver short iron?

350 and under.  The "drivable" is vague.  I can't drive the 280 yard par 4 on my home course.  One of our better players made an ace two weeks after the new course opened.

So I'm thinking 350 and under so it's driver short iron at most for all, unless you choose to lay up shorter (like Tiger did at #15 Dove Mountain, 318 yards.  What was that all about?).   What I'm really interested in is holes where there are numerous options, not just bomb and gouge.

Slightly OT but just to answer your question re: #15 in the WGC yesterday. Tiger was far from the only player to lay up there yesterday, though in the history of the event yesterday might be the first time the pros ever used that strategy. But it was cold and with some wind in their face and (a) making the carry wasn't certain and (b) even if you did, no one was really going to be able to get it up by the green. You really have to be able to clear the pot bunker abut 30 yds short of the green to make going for it a worthwhile endeavor. Otherwise you're in that pot bunker, which is just an extraordinarily difficult shot, or you're at an awkward angle behind the bunker and hill on the left with an uncomfortable-length pitch.

I was pretty surprised because my recollection of my one round at Dove Mountain is that the carry from the 318 tee can't be more than 220 yards across that wash.   Perhaps they were playing from a longer tee yesterday.

[Garland Bayley]

Old MacDonald #3 green tee.

Cool blind drive.
Unimaginable fairway giving practically every lie known to man.
Bunkerless green is perfect finish for such a cool hole.

[David Ober]

I really like the 310 yard hole at Journey at Pechanga. Great, tricky green.

[Bill Brightly]

Ridgewood "Five and Dime" which you might have seen when they hosted the Barclays. I will post a photo when I can. Driveable par 4 for the pros, about 290 yards, the last 50 are steeply uphill. One of the most vexing greens to hit. Normal depth, but only about 20 feet wide, so no margin for a slight pull or push. Severe slopes on either side of the green. Assuming you can't reach the green, you can hit an iron and have a full wedge, 3 wood wood and have half-wedge, or you can hit something 240-270 and "lay up" in rough to have a shorter pitch and take your chances with the lie, (not a bad play.) The green has two distinct sections, an upper and lower tier separated by a ridge. Truly genius design by Tilly that has withstood the test of time and equipment advances. Only increased greenspeeds/decreased mowing height threaten the hole, because it is hard for the green to stay healthy in the hottest months with heavy play and foot traffic.

[Mark Pearce]

If Mark Bourgeois inspired this thread it's only right that 14 at Ganton should get a mention.  Drive able (even by me) but with a cavernous bunker that needs to be carried if going for the green.  Enter that bunker and bogey is a sound score.  Carry it, just, and the hole runs down and to the left, taking the ball towards the green.  You can lay up with a six iron, to the right, but that leaves a wedge to a green that runs away from you.  3 and 4 at Ganton are also good short par 4s.

[Carl Nichols]

Bill-
I agree with you about #5 at Cuscowilla.  I was able to carry the center bunker on both plays, but both times was about 20 yards left of the green with a really tough pitch.  Didn't get it up and down either time; one time I hit it to 15 feet and missed, the other time I hit it to 20 feet and three-jacked.

On the controversial side I'd nominate #17 at Columbia Country Club here in DC, which IIRC I think you used to play when you lived here.  It's probably 290 from the back tees (but not tips), which are elevated relative to the fairway, but below the level of the green, which sits on a very steep hill straight up from the end of the (flat) fairway.  The layup is no bargain because the green is completely blind and very uphill from the fairway, but if you try and drive the green--which requires a huge carry--lots of trouble comes into play.   

[Jamey Bryan]

5 at Camden.  Sarazen said it was the best short 4 he ever played (and the shortest par 5 he ever played).  I'll try to post some pictures and/or a diagram tomorrow.  Note:  This is the only place I've seen a player in a good tournament putt from 5 feet into a bunker, declare the ball unplayable, then make the putt for bogey and halve the hole.

Jamey

[Jeff Taylor]

No pictures.
#2
NGLA

[Mark Bourgeois]

If Mark Bourgeois inspired this thread it's only right that 14 at Ganton should get a mention.  Drive able (even by me) but with a cavernous bunker that needs to be carried if going for the green.  Enter that bunker and bogey is a sound score.  Carry it, just, and the hole runs down and to the left, taking the ball towards the green.  You can lay up with a six iron, to the right, but that leaves a wedge to a green that runs away from you.  3 and 4 at Ganton are also good short par 4s.

YES!

I like also how going long is no bargain and with the length of the hole and fallaway cant of the green, the notion that you could hit it too far creeps into the back of your mind, subtly encouraging the golfer to tap the brakes—usually right when he starts his downswing.

There's a little bit of Ganton 14 in RMW 10.

Meanwhile, here's an NLE Mackenzie that's occupied my thoughts. Par 4, 290 yards:



Pretty cool set of choices, huh?

[Wade Whitehead]

I've always liked the 16th at Pine Barrens.  A less aggressive first shot still requires a good second, often to a blind target, which makes the decision on the tee a more difficult one than on many shorter par fours.

WW

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

What's the hole above?  It's a bit like a mirror image of the old 15th at Royal Melbourne (East), which I guess is really Alex Russell's, not MacKenzie's.  But the fairway options on the Royal Melbourne hole were even cooler.  What a shame it had to be modified because of the safety issues along the boundary.

[David Whitmer]

I don't remember exact yardages, so I apologize if any are over 350 yards.

I love #2 at Shoreacres. Deep trouble if you get too aggressive and go left.
I love #14 at NCR South. It looks so inviting from the tee, but you better hit the fairway and be accurate with your approach.
I love #7 at Ballyneal. A lot of fun, and full of options. I played it five times and had a 3, 3, 4, 5, and 6.
I love #16 at Bandon Dunes. Options off the tee, need an accurate approach, and the setting ain't bad either!

Other favorites are Inverness #18, Pac Dunes #6, Long Cove #5, Double Eagle #17, Skokie #15, and Atlanta National #16.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom,

The 16th at the no-rough, minimally-bunkered Bayside: http://golfcoursehistories.com/Bayside.html. Built by his ANGC foreman Wendell Miller. Seems like he employed a similar design approach on the longer par-4 1st and possibly on the par-5 13th (OB left, bunker the green on the right). In fact, all the OB on the course was positioned on the left: gotta take care of righty slicers.

Interesting comparison to RME 15; on the old hole couldn't you drive all the way over into RME 5 fairway if so desired? Yet another depressing example of lost width.

Mark

PS Just checked Wexler's book and it turns out he writes about Bayside 16. But he writes what I marked as grass bunkers were mounds. I'll try to confirm that and edit the picture as necessary.

[Wade Schueneman]

I love short par 4s that force the player to carefully consider club selection off of the tee on account of the intricacies of the green and surrounds.

My absoute favorites include
 
#1 NGLA
#7 Crystal Downs
#13 Kingsley
#11 Rivermont
#7 Ballyneal
#9 Fishers Island (and #3 and #4)
#14 at Mike Young's Lane Creek  - only about 250 yards, but the green is AWESOME
#3 Dormie
#12 TOC
#13 West Links
#1 Aiken

I also love #13 at Lahinch for its sheer beauty and the risk/reward scenario offered by the topography (including the pit to the right).
  

[Brian Chapin]

AWT built a lot of really cool Short Par 4's.  I agree with Bill that the "five and dime" on the center course at Ridgewood is pretty special.  I also really like the 15th at Fenway and the 3rd at Newport.

The twelfth hole on the Yellow course at Bethpage State Park would probably be right up there amongst the best if it were restored to what it once was...

[Sam Morrow]

Since 15 at Wild Horse has already been mentioned here are my submissions.

7 at Sand Hills, I made birdie there to get 3 under, then it all went to hell.
8 at Dismal River because it's pretty cool that so many can take it over the big dune and knock it on the green. Plus Cory Lewis was giddy when he drove it.
6 at Southwyck near Houston is a great little par 4 that's reachable for everyone (I say that because I put it 10 yards short of the green) it's got a tiny little green that's got some severe pitch. It's a Ken Kavanaugh design.
Wolf Point has some awesome little short par 4's, 4 and 10 are both phenomenal.

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